ECT Open Theism?

[Nang]

Romans 9 has nothing to do with predestination. It is about Israel as a nation being cut off. Israel - the nation - is the clay in the Potter's hands. Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to Israel. Jeremiah 18 is the chapter where God states that if He prophesies something and people repent then so will He. Sort of blows the whole Calvinist idea to smithereens.

This is just plain wrong teaching, Clete. You only deny Romans 9 teaches election (verse 11 explicitly says so), because God has never given you a new heart to believe in Jesus Christ raised up as sin, as substitute for each individual soul given to Him to redeem.

 

[Swifty357]

It makes me feel the Bible is schizophrenic on thus issue because there are verses for each side. Strong verses. What a hard issue to make sense ofm

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[Nang]

Why do you keep saying this to me? You know that I'm not making this stuff up!


Ever heard of TULIP?

Ever heard of Limited atonement?

Give me a break!

I believe in TULIP and I teach Limited Atonement. But you misrepresent what I believe all the time, so I find I must correct you all the time.

You have a mistaken conception of "Calvinism" in your brain that is wrong, and any and all Reformers will feel it necessary to set you straight, for the sake of others who read your Open Theism errors..

 

[Clete]

In scripture we see the perfect will of God undermined by the will of man, but ultimately foreseen from an omniscient perspective.

The perfect example of this is shown where God says through Jacob, "the scepter shall not depart from Judah" (Gen 49:10).
But wait a minute, didn't God choose Saul to be king? And didn't he say that he would have established Saul's kingdom forever?

How can the scepter not depart from Judah if Saul (a Benjamite) is chosen as king?
Did God cause Saul to fail?
Did God know through foreknowledge that Saul would fail?
How could God know that Saul would fail hundreds of years before he was born?

The obvious answer is that God knew that Saul would blow it, and that there would be a boy from Judah who would take the crown from Saul.[/quote]
That isn't the obvious answer at all! This answer presupposes that God was lying when said that Saul's kingdom would be established forever.

If anything the fact that it wasn't is evidence of Open Theism! Again, just because God said it, doesn't make it pre-written history. See Jeremiah 18.

Open Theism is nothing but a humanistic attempt at toppling Calvinism. It denies God Omniscience.

It is the bible that denies God's omniscience, not Open theism. It was Plato that said that God is a know it all, not the bible. The only reason you believe it because the doctrine was introduced into the Christian religion by Augistine who all but worshiped the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

It makes me feel the Bible is schizophrenic on thus issue because there are verses for each side. Strong verses. What a hard issue to make sense ofm

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God is Sovereign God, who knows all things, and never changes. That is the most important thing to believe . . all the arguments brought about by false teachers who deny God knows all things and never changes, should just be ignored, for to think that God does not know all or that He will ever change His mind is not believing in God at all.

Open Theists are really atheists . . .

 

[Nang]

Thanks for those recommendations. I appreciate everyone giving their viewpoint on this. Ive been a Christian since the 90s with no clue this battle was taking place. Cant wait to checkout Enyart Lambertson. In his debate with White after the first round I thogught White was destroying him. And i was leaning settled viewpoint. But Enyart was scrappy and hung in there and by the time the cross examinations were over Enyart had me on the open view point. That was like a couple pit bulls fighting. Both men had strong cases and elite debating skills. Very close in my opinion. I gave it to Enyart being a little more persuasive, but I could understand someone siding with White as well. Probably the best debate i ever watched in anything.

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That was quite a debate, and of course, being a Reformer, I side with James White and hold him in highest esteem and think he has far more scriptural wisdom and knowledge than Enyart.

White is a Theologian. Enyart is a radio personality, theologian wanna-be.

 

[andyc]

That isn't the obvious answer at all! This answer presupposes that God was lying when said that Saul's kingdom would be established forever.

Not at all.
God gave Saul a shot, but before David is even king, he is credited as being a better man than Saul.
How can an untested boy be credited as being a better man than Saul?
Did God foreordain it, or foresee it?

If anything the fact that it wasn't is evidence of Open Theism! Again, just because God said it, doesn't make it pre-written history. See Jeremiah 18.

It is the bible that denies God's omniscience, not Open theism. It was Plato that said that God is a know it all, not the bible. The only reason you believe it because the doctrine was introduced into the Christian religion by Augistine who all but worshiped the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato).

Resting in Him,
Clete

It's not a problem for me to believe that God is all knowing. The philosophers who agree with this, even if they're pagan, have a high opinion of God's characteristics.

 

[Clete]

This is just plain wrong teaching, Clete. You only deny Romans 9 teaches election (verse 11 explicitly says so), because God has never given you a new heart to believe in Jesus Christ raised up as sin, as substitute for each individual soul given to Him to redeem.

On the contrary. I have established that Romans 9 has NOTHING to do with predestination whatsoever - here

 

[patrick jane]

That was quite a debate, and of course, being a Reformer, I side with James White and hold him in highest esteem and think he has far more scriptural wisdom and knowledge than Enyart.

White is a Theologian. Enyart is a radio personality, theologian wanna-be.

How dare you

 

[Clete]

Not at all.
God gave Saul a shot, but before David is even king, he is credited as being a better man than Saul.
How can an untested boy be credited as being a better man than Saul?
Did God foreordain it, or foresee it?

Neither. David could have been just as evil as Saul in which case God would have cut him off too.

It's not a problem for me to believe that God is all knowing. The philosophers who agree with this, even if they're pagan, have a high opinion of God's characteristics.

Good for you and the philosophers!

The bible repeatedly demonstrates that God is not omniscient in the classical sense of the term.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Im very confused on this issue is there any good books i should read for the other side the closed viewpoint? I want to be balanced. Anyone else wrestle with these things?

No, don't at all see what there is to wrestle with. The Bible is replete with clear doctrine of God's omniscience, as well as omnipotence, omniscience which is even proven, as you point out, by precise prophetic knowledge of the future, that only God can know. Truth is not a matter of balance, and we should want the truth, nothing more, nothing less.

Some philospher, trying to stuff God into a box, may as well be dissertating on Batman or whatever, as all such talk is useless, when it is divorced from scripture truth. Put it this way, what do you think you take away from somebody rambling on in their error? But, as a person of faith, I can't see wrestling with the notion God is the Alimighty God of the Bible, have long had peace with His greatness, which is beyond all comprehension. It's like the preacher once said, "If you can get past, 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,' what's your problem?"

As to all the philosophers out there, trying to rewrite scripture of Eternal God, from their vast experience of a few decades, and about a third of that time asleep,

Isaiah 55

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

I do have a book to recommend, the Bible.

 

[Nang]

Neither. David could have been just as evil as Saul in which case God would have cut him off too.


Good for you and the philosophers!

The bible repeatedly demonstrates that God is not omniscient in the classical sense of the term.

You say this in unbelief. You do not believe in God so you do not believe in His Word.

 

[Clete]

You say this in unbelief. You do not believe in God so you do not believe in His Word.

I quoted His word you dolt!

What planet are you on?

 

[Clete]

God is Sovereign God, who knows all things, and never changes. That is the most important thing to believe . . all the arguments brought about by false teachers who deny God knows all things and never changes, should just be ignored, for to think that God does not know all or that He will ever change His mind is not believing in God at all.

Open Theists are really atheists . . .

And you deny being a "Calvinism is the gospel itself" nut!

Ha!

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I quoted His word you dolt!

What planet are you on?

Has anybody else noticed that what sets TOL apart is its cordiality? This reminds me! I'd been meaning to study-up on the fruits of the Spirit, may have missed something. Was one of them a lemon? This is what I recall, anyway:

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[Danoh]

I recently bought the God who risks by Sanders. As a MAD believer i was happy when i found theology online. While reading the posts i found open theism being discussed a lot here. I never heard of it before. So i read some of the debates. Watched Enyart and White debate. Searched the web for it. I really like how it believes God doesn't predestine child molestation and murders. And how some not all natural disasters are from God. But I never believed God was the cause of all evil anyway. And I see how Jonah prophecy to Nineveh helped them repent. And how jeremiah God says he can change his judgment if people repent which makes repentance and prayer more fruitful. And breeds zeal to evangelize the lost. What I dont like about it is saying God doesn't know everything and is not all powerful which i have always believed. I also dont like thinking God didnt know i would one day exist. And how could God give us all this endtime prophecy in Daniel and Revelations if he doesn't know the future? But I can see Jesus being God in the flesh coming to earth for us as a change for God the Son. Im very confused on this issue is there any good books i should read for the other side the closed viewpoint? I want to be balanced. Anyone else wrestle with these things?

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Put the books away for awhile.

I mean this.

Get stronger in your understanding of the Mystery.

It is the only way to the following...

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

You'll find you have your sought after answers as you go.

Or as the Apostle Paul also put it...

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[Swifty357]

I wonder why both cant be true. Just because God is all knowing shouldnt mean he decreed all things to happen that way. He has already seen the movie so to speak so he knows exactly what will happen. But he lets everyone work their own free will and we do have choice. Otherwise all scriptures that tell us to repent, walk in the light and not be carnal, pray for the sick, and evangelize the lost would be a waste of paper and ink. If we cant choose to do right. And that way God didnt decree rapes, ect. These people had freewill to do as God commands or to live like the world. But if a man forsakes God and brutally rapes a woman of course God knows it will happen he already seen the whole movie, which is why he can prophesy the future accurately he knows all things, but it wasnt what he wanted the evil heart of man did it not because God forced him to but because he is an evil man that didnt listen to his conscience or the word of God.

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[patrick jane]

I wonder why both cant be true. Just because God is all knowing shouldnt mean he decreed all things to happen that way. He has already seen the movie so to speak so he knows exactly what will happen. But he lets everyone work their own free will and we do have choice. Otherwise all scriptures that tell us to repent, walk in the light and not be carnal, pray for the sick, and evangelize the lost would be a waste of paper and ink. If we cant choose to do right. And that way God didnt decree rapes, ect. These people had freewill to do as God commands or to live like the world. But if a man forsakes God and brutally rapes a woman of course God knows it will happen he already seen the whole movie, which is why he can prophesy the future accurately he knows all things, but it wasnt what he wanted the evil heart of man did it not because God forced him to but because he is an evil man that didnt listen to his conscience or the word of God.

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I see what ur sayin' Swifty

 

[Nang]

I wonder why both cant be true. Just because God is all knowing shouldnt mean he decreed all things to happen that way. He has already seen the movie so to speak so he knows exactly what will happen. But he lets everyone work their own free will and we do have choice. Otherwise all scriptures that tell us to repent, walk in the light and not be carnal, pray for the sick, and evangelize the lost would be a waste of paper and ink. If we cant choose to do right. And that way God didnt decree rapes, ect. These people had freewill to do as God commands or to live like the world. But if a man forsakes God and brutally rapes a woman of course God knows it will happen he already seen the whole movie, which is why he can prophesy the future accurately he knows all things, but it wasnt what he wanted the evil heart of man did it not because God forced him to but because he is an evil man that didnt listen to his conscience or the word of God.

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Belief that God is Sovereign and knows all things, does not mean God is the author of sin and wickedness.

God made man good, and placed man under His holy standards, and when man (Adam) refused to live according to those standards, sin was imputed to his account with God; his nature corrupted, he lost the ability to choose righteousness, and he spiritually/physically died.

So, God created man. Man sinned. Man is held responsible, not the Creator.

It is a dilemma without answer, apart from God sending His Son to reconcile the two truths in His Person on the cross.

Sin/death had to be eliminated first, before the heart and will of man could be healed and enabled and freed to again willingly serve righteousness as he was created to do. John 8:34-36

We are justified (pardoned our sin) by faith, alone.

Holy living follows . . .

 

[Swifty357]

I dont understand why White has to own God decrees all rape. Or why Enyart has to limit Gods knowledge and say God never knew we would exist or to say Christ could have disobeyed the Father. I think these are false premises to say it has to be one way or the other. Jesus is as much God as the Father or Holy Spirit. And they are one Jesus couldnt be against himself. And White need not put God in the drivers seat of all tragedy as if everything we do was chosen by God. Just cause God knows what we will do doesnt make it his fault. God didnt want to make robots or angels with no freewill that couldnt bring him pleasure or glory. It makes him a monster if that is true. Which I cant believe God is behind all evil by divine decree. But I will never blasphem and say God is not all knowing or all powerful. But he made us in His image and lets us choose life or death, wrong or right. Of course he could stop all evil but then we could never really love, or live. Can the truth be both views. It would harmonize all these scriptures that seem to be disagreeing.


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