ECT Raptured__ What is it? Who is will be? When will it happen?

kayaker

New member
Jesus and Paul were not making distinctions of the flesh but of the faith.

Although faith is a good thing LA, perhaps the best of things, Paul was distinctly talking about the flesh early in my source text Romans 9:6 KJV, Romans 9:7 KJV:

Romans 9:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, KJV “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren (Paul was a Benjamite), my kinsmen (fellow Israelites) according to the flesh: 4) Who are Israelites (flesh); to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all, God be blessed for ever. Amen. 6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel (Israelites) which are of Israel: 7) Neither, because they are of Abraham, are they all children (of Abraham): but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called (Genesis 21:12 KJV).​

Paul also noted in Galatians 4:3 KJV “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons (Genesis 25:9 KJV), the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free-woman.” Where were “the children of Keturah” (Genesis 25:4 KJV), delineated a few verses earlier, during Abraham’s funeral?

Jesus’ conversation with those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV) plotting His crucifixion was distinctly about flesh in my source text John 8: 33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV, also:

John 8:19, 23, 33, 37, 39, KJV “Then they said unto him, Where is thy Father?... 23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above, ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 33) They answered him, We be Abrahams’ seed (flesh), and were never in bondage to any man (flesh)… 37) I know that ye are Abraham’s seed (flesh)… 39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father (flesh). Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children (flesh), ye would do the works of Abraham.”​

‘They’ didn’t show up at Abraham’s funeral! Paul made this same flesh ‘seed’ v. ‘children’ distinction in Romans 9:6 KJV, Romans 9:7 KJV. But, I think you overlooked my source text in Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4, where Moses distinctly called Abraham’s ‘progeny’ via Keturah “the children of Keturah.”

Anyone could become an Israelite or Jew by coming into the covenant with God in the OT.

Indeed LA, spiritually and figuratively speaking… and, that was after the fact of Jesus’ arrival. That does not refute the fact there were those who disputed Jesus’ ancestry, both from a maternal flesh perspective, and from a Divine perspective. Matthew began the NT with “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham” (Matthew 1:1 KJV):

Matthew 1:2, 3, KJV “Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3) And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom (Hezron); and Esrom begat Aram;”​

As I previously pointed out LA; Ezra excluded Shelah and “The sons of Shelah the son of Judah…” (1Chronicles 4:21 KJV) from the tribe of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1 KV. Therefore, Abraham’s progeny via Keturah (Judah’s Canaanitess wife, 1Chronicles 2:3), daughter of Keturah’s Canaanite son Shuah (Genesis 38:2, Genesis 25:1, 2, 4), the Shelanites (Numbers 26:20 KJV) were NOT Israelites (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV, Romans 9:6 KJV, Romans 9:7 KJV). Neither were they Jews (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). And, ‘they’ had a vested interest instigating Jesus’ crucifixion, a descendant of Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar, contrary to multiple Laws in Leviticus 18:15 KJV, Leviticus 20:12 KJV, Leviticus 21:7 KJV (Genesis 38:11 KJV), Leviticus 21:9 KJV, Leviticus 21:13 KJV, Leviticus 21:14 KJV…

With sincere respect to Genuineoriginal, when one uses the title "Jew," then one needs to be explicit not including the Shelanites (Genesis 25:4 KJV, Genesis 38:2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 26, KJV, Numbers 26:20 KJV, 1Chronicles 4:1 minus 1Chronicles 4:21, Ezra 9:1, 2, Ezra 9:7 KJV, John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV, Romans 9:6, 7, Revelation 2:9, 3:9, with particular emphasis on Revelation 3:10 KJV as relates to this discussion.

On a side note along these lines: When one grasps the notion Nicodemus was suggesting a man re-enter his mother's womb, and be born again... Nicodemus was suggesting a Gentile, for instance, re-enter his mother's womb and be born a 'Jew.' That was the 'flesh' perspective of the day, as we've overcome via faith becoming heirs to the covenant as adopted children of Abraham via the righteous blood of Jesus Christ, descendant of Abraham via Judah, via Pharez.

kayaker
 

kayaker

New member
Jesus was dead in the tomb for 3 days.

The only reason they were surprised is because they each did not know of the dirty work others had done to Him.

Christ was smashed on the insides as well.


LA

Appreciating your post LA, I was referring particularly to Pilot, and should have provided Scriptural support that Pilot marveled that Jesus died on the cross so quickly:

Mark 15:43, 44, 45, KJV. Jesus' flesh death on the cross preempted Pilate's expectation, and, Pilot ought to know! That was my point. Jesus' Spirit was 'raptured' from His living flesh body while on the cross. Jesus' body didn't die, and then His Spirit was received... Jesus' Spirit was received, and then Jesus' flesh body died.

kayaker
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
. . . I guess then she gives birth in heaven and then is pursued into a heavenly wilderness while the devil seeks to kill her remnant seed in heaven. But wait!!!! The devil was kicked of heaven! How can all that be?? :confused: hmmm??

You do not seem to have an understanding of spiritual things.

The heaven of Rev.ch 12 refers to the spiritual realm of the church on earth.

The vision of the woman is of Zion the Heavenly Jerusalem out of which vision of the future was born Christ.

Satan was never in Heaven itself, for he was a liar from the beginning.

Satan is kicked out of the company of the church (in the future)where he accuses the believers of their sins when the church presents itself before God on earth in their assemblies.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God (the prophets)came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

LA
 

God's Truth

New member
You mean I don't get my understanding from commentaries. That's true.

Why do you prefer to get them from other men? Should you not get your own understanding?

After you get understanding, we have to watch our lives and our doctrines carefully.

Lazy Afternoon has not watched his doctrines carefully.

1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Not arguing the balance of your post, Genuineoriginal... God's people were the Israelites (Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9) who were commanded to not mingle with the Canaanites, etc (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3). I can accept the argument all Israelites were Jews, but I cannot accept the argument all Jews were Israelites (Revelation 2:9, 3:9).
The inhabitants of Judea called the Jews were the ones that received the promise that they would return to the land after 70 years of captivity in Babylon. This promise was not given to the 10 tribes of Israel.
Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the seventy weeks while they were in Babylon when the 70 years of captivity was ending.
Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the great tribulation.

That is what keeps being missed by futurist eschatologists.
 

Cross Reference

New member
The inhabitants of Judea called the Jews were the ones that received the promise that they would return to the land after 70 years of captivity in Babylon. This promise was not given to the 10 tribes of Israel.
Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the seventy weeks while they were in Babylon when the 70 years of captivity was ending.
Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the great tribulation.

That is what keeps being missed by futurist eschatologists.

And this was prophesied about a woman in front of the only two people on Earth:

To the serpent God said, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 (KJV)

Who is the "her" in this if not a future "her"?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
And this was prophesied about a woman in front of the only two people on Earth:

To the serpent God said, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 (KJV)

Who is the "her" in this if not a future "her"?
That would be Chavah (Eve).

The seed comes in future generations.

Genesis 17:9
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.​

 

rougueone

New member
Raptured__ What is it? Who is will be? When will it happen?

What is it?....If it is, it will be according to God plan. Really we do not know.

Who is will be?.....Gods choice. Really we do not know.

When will it happen? . Gods choice. Really we do not know.


Perhaps our greater concern should be focused on :

"It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority" .

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Let us: Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

The rest is Gods sovereign plan.

Hope this helps.
 

Cross Reference

New member
That would be Chavah (Eve).

The seed comes in future generations.

Genesis 17:9
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.​



No, it would not have been by Eve's seed Jesus came, but Adam's through Eve who produced Mary who was impregnated with the sinless seed of God that He could then be called the "second [sinless] Adam". Speaking of it as being the "seed of the woman" makes the connection to humankind by which Jesus would eventually become the reconciling 'handshake' between God and man.

If we can see the woman in Rev 12 in the same light, to be the Church, I believe we will understand the sinlessness [by faith] of the man-child she births into existence who will immediately be caught away.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
No, it would not have been by Eve's seed Jesus came, but Adam's through Eve who produced Mary who was impregnated with the sinless seed of God that He could then be called the "second sinless Adam". Speaking of it as being the "seed of the woman" makes the connection to humankind. Jesus would eventually become the 'handshake' between God and man.

If we can see the woman in Rev 12 in the same light to be the Church, I believe we will understand the sinlessness [by faith] of the man-child she births into existence who will immediately be caught away.
You are attempting to force the prophecies to mean what you want them to mean and are refusing to look at the prophecies for what they actually state first, nor are you looking at the context of the verses for clarification.

Genesis 3:2
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:​


Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

The woman in both verses is the exact same person: Chavah (Eve).
 

Cross Reference

New member
You are attempting to force the prophecies to mean what you want them to mean and are refusing to look at the prophecies for what they actually state first, nor are you looking at the context of the verses for clarification.

Genesis 3:2
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:​


Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

The woman in both verses is the exact same person: Chavah (Eve).


Whatever. i have nothing more to contribute.
 

kayaker

New member
The inhabitants of Judea called the Jews were the ones that received the promise that they would return to the land after 70 years of captivity in Babylon. This promise was not given to the 10 tribes of Israel.

Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the seventy weeks while they were in Babylon when the 70 years of captivity was ending.

Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the great tribulation.

That is what keeps being missed by futurist eschatologists.

While sincerely appreciating your argument, GO… I’m suggesting you are painting with a geographical brush suggesting, “The inhabitants of Judea called the Jews were the ones that received the promise…”

Paul was a Benjamite (Philippians 3:5 KJV) “Jew born in Tarsus of Cicilia” (Acts 22:3 KJV), which is on the northern coast of the Mediterranean. Although a Benjamite Jew, Paul was not originally from Judea on the east coast of the Mediterranean. Possibly you have further comment; but, I suggest considering the definition of a Jew from the ancestral/tribal perspective, instead of a geographical one.

I appreciate the southern kingdom consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (as was Paul, although born northward)… I’m encouraging a very precise tribal distinction establishing one as a Jew, GO:

According to the Bible, King David reigned over a large territory and his son Solomon over an even larger one. After the death of King Solomon, the kingdom was divided in two. The southern kingdom consisted only of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and thus became the kingdom of Judah, with Jerusalem as its capital.

http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/map-gallery/i/map-israel-and-judah.aspx

So, please back up just a bit and consider that Judah’s Canaanite father-in-law Shuah (Genesis 38:2 KJV) was a ‘son’ of Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). The relationship between the Israelite Judah and his Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3) was contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3. Ezra reiterated said union as a “great trespass” in Ezra 9:1, 2, Ezra 9:7 KJV, some 1,400 years later. There is no record Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, KJV was ever rescinded for 1,400 years, or beyond. Therefore, Judah’s descendants via his Canaanitess wife, the Shelanites (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 26, Numbers 26:20 KJV), were not Israelites, and could not be Jews from an ethnic/ancestral perspective.

Furthermore, Ezra enumerated the tribe of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV consisting exclusively of Judah’s descendants via his daughter-in-law Tamar in 1Chronicles 4:1. In contrast, Judah’s Canaanite son Shelah, and “The sons of Shelah the son of Judah…” (1Chronicles 4:21 KJV), were specifically excluded from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, the Shelanite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife were neither Israelite (Romans 9:6, 7), ethnic Jews (Revelation 2:9, 3:9), nor of the tribe of Judah (1Chronicles 4:1 minus 1Chronicles 4:21).

You are certainly entitled to refer to the Shelanite descendants of Judah as geographical Jews in Judea, but they were not ethnic Israelites (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV, Romans 9:6, 7). The Shelanite descendants of Judah were not ethnic Jews (Revelation 2:9, 3:9) as was Paul (Acts 22:3 KJV, Philippians 3:5 KJV). The Shelanite descendants of Judah were not of the tribe of Judah (1Chronicles 4:1 minus 1Chronicles 4:21).

Undoubtedly, the Canaanite/Shelanite descendants of Judah were among those of the southern kingdom, but that could only afford the Shelanites a geographic title of ‘Jew,’ and not an ethnic one. Therefore, said distinction directly impacts your position in this thread:

Those same inhabitants of Judea were given the prophecy of the great tribulation.

I generally agree with your position, GO. More explicitly, following Matthew 24:15 KJV, some of those inhabitants will head for the hills noted in Matthew 24:16 KJV. Those Israelite Jews, “the children of the kingdom” (Matthew 13:38 KJV, Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9, 10) are the ancestrally “lost sheep of the house of Israel”: descendants of Judah and Tamar (Matthew 1:3 KJV), subject to Matthew 24:31 KJV. Those are the distinct tribe of Judah (1Chronicles 4:1).

The other explicit inhabitants of Judea, currently and at that time in the future, are the Shelanite geographical ‘Jews’ (1Chronicles 4:21, Numbers 26:20). Those imposter ‘Jews’ (Revelation 2:9, 2:9) I suggest will help fulfill Matthew 24:15 KJV, Matthew 24:28 KJV subject to Matthew 13:39, 40, 41, 42, fulfilling Genesis 3:15 KJV.

kayaker
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Why do you prefer to get them from other men? Should you not get your own understanding?

After you get understanding, we have to watch our lives and our doctrines carefully.

Lazy Afternoon has not watched his doctrines carefully.

1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Time will tell now will it not? and we will see who is taught by the Lord and who works things out for themselves.

LA
 

God's Truth

New member
good post

I know that right now

I do not condemn anyone when they go against my beliefs and when I go against theirs. However, many here tell me I am not saved because I do not have their beliefs; in their doing that, they have only judged themselves.

All I want to do is spur others on to obey Jesus. Obeying Jesus is how we please Jesus. Obeying Jesus is how we get understanding. Obeying Jesus is how we have life and clothe ourselves with Christ.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
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I do not condemn anyone when they go against my beliefs and when I go against theirs. However, many here tell me I am not saved because I do not have their beliefs; in their doing that, they have only judged themselves.

All I want to do is spur others on to obey Jesus. Obeying Jesus is how we please Jesus. Obeying Jesus is how we get understanding. Obeying Jesus is how we have life and clothe ourselves with Christ.

I agree
and
to say someone is not saved
is
not a condemnation of them
it is just a claim that we are not really saved until the end
I am not saved
but
I believe I can be saved
if
I can overcometh
 
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