Saying it doesn't make it so.
"He came unto His own and His own received Him not."
God never effectually gives life to people. He only gives life to those who believe.
Received because Given !
- Thread starter beloved57
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Saying it doesn't make it so.
"He came unto His own and His own received Him not."
God never effectually gives life to people. He only gives life to those who believe.
beloved57
Well-known member
Jesus gives life to the world and its received because its given, not offered. Jn 6:33
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Jesus is a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The word quickening is the greek word zōopoieō and means:
- to produce alive, begat or bear living young
- to cause to live, make alive, give life
Thats what Jesus is saying in Jn 6:33, He gives life, and its received and the world of people He gave life to lives
Calvinists make a huge mistake by assuming that God deliberately made sinners incapable of repenting of their sins so He could burn them forever in hell in great wrath for refusing to repent of their sins.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
Jesus came unto His own, and His own, received Him not.
Your argument has been disproven.
"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not."
:yawn:
Not always, as I've already shown, which you refuse to acknowledge.
Nope, you're reading your beliefs onto the text again.
There is no "world of people He gave life to" in John 6:33.
He gave life to the world. PERIOD.
Your problem is that you're assuming that Him giving life is effectual, and so you have to twist what scripture says to make it fit your theology.
However, if you simply take away the effectual part, you have what scripture says, which is that God gave life to the world, He gave His only begotten Son, and His own received Him not, like many reject Him to this day, but on the other hand, you have others who, when they hear the gospel, they accept His gift of life.
beloved57
Well-known member
Jesus gives life to the world Jn 6:33 and that world received life.
YES.
No. "His own" are part of the world.
"His own" RECEIVED HIM NOT.
You CANNOT get around that, which is why you're wrong.
God did not just give life to men, but also to animals. God told the Jews not to eat flesh with the blood because the blood is the life of the flesh and God made it possible for sinners to make an atonement for their souls by offering a sacrifice by blood on the altar.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
beloved57
Well-known member
Jesus gave life to that world because it was dead. When someone dead is given life, its automatically received. Lazarus who was dead received life from the same Jesus of Jn 6:33. Jesus gave the world life in Jn 6:33 like He did Lazarus. Now was life given lazarus by offering it to him ? Did Lazarus accept an offer in order to receive it ? No none of that, Lazarus was dead, likewise the them who belonged to the world of Jn 6:33 were dead, dead in sin, dead to God, without any hope.
God is love, not hate. There is no biblical basis for assuming God deliberately created sinners for the sole purpose of destroying them in white-hot anger for being sinners.
You still aren't getting it.
There is no "that world."
There is only "the world."
You keep reading your beliefs into the text as if that makes them correct, but it doesn't.
The world was dead. God gave His life, His own received Him not.
Those are the facts.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Lazarus was told to "come forth." He wasn't given anything other than a command.
You have yet to establish this, and I have already debunked it.
Again, Lazarus was given a command to come forth, and naught else.
If you're going to continue to use Lazarus as your defence for calvinism, I'm going to point out that if you're right, then Jesus saying what He said in John 11:14-15 makes no sense at all.
Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.” - John 11:14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John11:14-15&version=NKJV
As Dr. Leighton Flowers puts it:
| "If effectual grace causes faith, then it would seem superfluous to refer to a miracle as helping them to believe. The Bible never once relates Lazarus' death or his resurrection to our individual salvation. A better understanding of the idiomatic use of deadness in the New Testament is to understand it as separation from God due to our rebellion. Jesus' parable of the prodigal Son is a perfect example of one who was separated from the father due to rebellion. As the father concluded upon the son's arrival home, 'for this son of mine was dead, and he is alive again. He was lost, and is found.' Luke 15:24. His deadness is in reference to his lost-ness, or his separation from the father due to rebellion. not a lack of moral capacity to respond and to humbly return home in humiliation." |
beloved57
Well-known member
Was Lazarus dead ? The one Jesus raised from the dead in Jn 11 ?You still aren't getting it.
There is no "that world."
There is only "the world."
You keep reading your beliefs into the text as if that makes them correct, but it doesn't.
The world was dead. God gave His life, His own received Him not.
Those are the facts.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Lazarus was told to "come forth." He wasn't given anything other than a command.
You have yet to establish this, and I have already debunked it.
Again, Lazarus was given a command to come forth, and naught else.
If you're going to continue to use Lazarus as your defence for calvinism, I'm going to point out that if you're right, then Jesus saying what He said in John 11:14-15 makes no sense at all.
Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.” - John 11:14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John11:14-15&version=NKJV
As Dr. Leighton Flowers puts it:
"If effectual grace causes faith, then it would seem superfluous to refer to a miracle as helping them to believe. The Bible never once relates Lazarus' death or his resurrection to our individual salvation.
A better understanding of the idiomatic use of deadness in the New Testament is to understand it as separation from God due to our rebellion. Jesus' parable of the prodigal Son is a perfect example of one who was separated from the father due to rebellion. As the father concluded upon the son's arrival home, 'for this son of mine was dead, and he is alive again. He was lost, and is found.' Luke 15:24.
His deadness is in reference to his lost-ness, or his separation from the father due to rebellion. not a lack of moral capacity to respond and to humbly return home in humiliation."
Lazarus was dead. And the blind man was still blind when he called to Jesus for mercy. You cannot have it both ways. The blind man prayed to be healed before God healed him, proving he did not first have to be healed before calling on God for mercy.
Luke 18
35 And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:
36 And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.
37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.
38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes Lazarus was dead. Now when Jesus gave him life did he receive it ?
You have yet to show that Jesus gave Lazarus anything other than a command to come forth. Stop begging the question.
Also:
If you're going to continue to use Lazarus as your defence for calvinism, I'm going to point out that if you're right, then Jesus saying what He said in John 11:14-15 makes no sense at all.
Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.” - John 11:14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John11:14-15&version=NKJV
As Dr. Leighton Flowers puts it:
| "If effectual grace causes faith, then it would seem superfluous to refer to a miracle as helping them to believe. The Bible never once relates Lazarus' death or his resurrection to our individual salvation. A better understanding of the idiomatic use of deadness in the New Testament is to understand it as separation from God due to our rebellion. Jesus' parable of the prodigal Son is a perfect example of one who was separated from the father due to rebellion. As the father concluded upon the son's arrival home, 'for this son of mine was dead, and he is alive again. He was lost, and is found.' Luke 15:24. His deadness is in reference to his lost-ness, or his separation from the father due to rebellion. not a lack of moral capacity to respond and to humbly return home in humiliation |
beloved57
Well-known member
So Christ didnt give Lazarus life from the dead ?
Lazarus was raised from the dead just like all saints who died in Jesus will be raised from the dead. Just because they are dead does not mean they are lost.
Of course Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, proving He will also be able to raise all the elect who died in Jesus from the dead in the resurrection.
This is an argument from silence.
You are the one making the claim that God gave Lazarus life, therefore YOU are the one that has to establish that claim.
I claim that God gave Lazarus a command to "Come forth." I do not go beyond that, because scripture does not go beyond that.
Also:
If you're going to continue to use Lazarus as your defence for calvinism, I'm going to point out that if you're right, then Jesus saying what He said in John 11:14-15 makes no sense at all.
Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.” - John 11:14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John11:14-15&version=NKJV
As Dr. Leighton Flowers puts it:
| "If effectual grace causes faith, then it would seem superfluous to refer to a miracle as helping them to believe. The Bible never once relates Lazarus' death or his resurrection to our individual salvation. A better understanding of the idiomatic use of deadness in the New Testament is to understand it as separation from God due to our rebellion. Jesus' parable of the prodigal Son is a perfect example of one who was separated from the father due to rebellion. As the father concluded upon the son's arrival home, 'for this son of mine was dead, and he is alive again. He was lost, and is found.' Luke 15:24. His deadness is in reference to his lost-ness, or his separation from the father due to rebellion. not a lack of moral capacity to respond and to humbly return home in humiliation |
beloved57
Well-known member
If you cant acknowledge that clear simple fact, this discussion cant be governed by simple reason.