You have yet to establish it as fact. Don't get ahead of yourself, B57.
Says the one using logical fallacies to defend his position. Hypocrite.
Received because Given !
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You have yet to establish it as fact. Don't get ahead of yourself, B57.
Says the one using logical fallacies to defend his position. Hypocrite.
beloved57
Well-known member
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Moreno in his book by grace alone writes; https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-25
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Moreno in his book by grace alone writes; https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-25
Nobody will be given the power to become a son of God until he receives the word of God preached to his heart by the Spirit of God.
beloved57
Well-known member
Man’s receiving is a gift from God. Man cannot receive God unless God has chosen the man to receive Him. Salvation does not come after a man gives his consent to be saved, for salvation is not something offered, but given. Salvation is not a man’s choice, salvation is God’s choosing His chosen by grace. Salvation is a Sovereign act of God, and not something which any man can choose, or work for. Man receives only because God has given. That is grace. Man receiving is man being given something by God. Receiving is not the result of a man’s choice to accept, but of God having given. To receive is to have inherited something because of someone else. To receive is to have been appointed by another to receive. A gift is predetermined by the gift giver, not the one receiving the gift. A gift is predetermined according to the gift giver’s will, not in agreement with the gift receiver’s will. Salvation is all based on God’s will, on what God wants. https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-26
God chooses to save those who humble themselves before God.
James 4:10
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Proverbs 3:34
Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
So if I send you a present for Christmas, does that mean you received it?
God chose to save all mankind by sending His Son to die for all mankind.
What mankind does with that offer of salvation is on man, not God.
Straw man.
But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.” - Romans 10:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:21&version=NKJV
That doesn't sound like an offer to you?
Giving something to someone doesn't mean they cannot reject it.
If I give you a rotten apple full of worms and maggots, are you compelled to then eat it by me giving it to you? or do you throw it away, because just thinking about eating it would cause you to vomit, let alone actually putting it in your mouth?
Humbling oneself is a choice. God saves those who humble themselves before Him.
Circular reasoning is a fallacy.
Define "Sovereign," please.
Because no one has said that salvation isn't an act of God.
A man can choose to reject the salvation God has given him.
No one has said that man can work for his salvation.
Correction: Man CAN receive because God has given. But man is NOT GUARANTEED to accept what is given.
Grace is unmerited favor.
There is no merit in humbling oneself before God, nor is there merit in believing in God. Yet God will not save anyone who does not humble themselves and believe in Him.
There is no guarantee that man will accept what God gives him.
Receiving does not guarantee that man will accept what is given.
Supra.
Supra.
Supra.
No disagreement there.
What is given is NOT GUARANTEED to be accepted by the one receiving. God wills for all to be saved. Not all will be saved, because not all will accept Him, and not all have accepted Him.
:yawn:
beloved57
Well-known member
Anyone who is a non-Christian follows the flesh, the world, and the devil, and anyone who follows the flesh, the world, and the devil is spiritually "dead." Therefore, anyone who is a non-Christian is spiritually dead. If this description is meaningful, it must mean that anyone who is spiritually dead is spiritually helpless.23 Spiritual death entails complete spiritual inability and passivity. A non-Christian can do nothing to contribute to or move toward his salvation. There must be a power other than himself to do something to him. Thus salvation is a divine work that is done to man, not by man or with man.24 Paul offers us a wholly negative picture of man's spiritual condition. He has made it impossible for man to do anything to change or improve. However, he does not stop here, but he says that God did something for the chosen ones, and he did it because of his "mercy" and "love." In another place, Paul states that God's mercy and love are sovereignly given, that he bestows them on whomever he wills without consideration of the conditions in those who receive from him (Romans 9:13, 15). God shows mercy and love to a person not because that person is willing to receive; rather, the person is willing to receive because of God's mercy and love. God decides to show him mercy and love, and therefore makes him willing to receive. As Paul explains, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14, NASB). A spiritually dead person cannot decide to receive from God, but a person receives from God because God has first made him spiritually alive https://www.vincentcheung.com/books/Commentary on Ephesians.pdf
Those who are in the flesh mind the things in the flesh until the time comes, if it does, that they yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and turn to God for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of a new life.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
How is it even possible for anyone to believe this utter nonsense?Jn 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except
it be given him from heaven.
I want to take this opportunity to correct a very subtle error , and that is when we read the word receive in scripture that it means something was offered man and man had a choice with his own so called freewill to either accept or reject whats being offered. For instance we read in Rom 5:17
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
The word receive is the same in Jn 3 27 as is here in Rom 5 17, its the word lambanō and means:
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back and to view all of its definitions see:
G2983 - lambanō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G2983 - λαμβάνω lambánō, lam-ban'-o; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas is rather subjective or passive, to have offered...www.blueletterbible.org
Now the point being made in Rom 5:17 is they received abundance of grace not because it was offered to them, but because it was given to them. In scripture Grace is never offered but given
Ps 84:11
For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
Rom 12:3,6
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that isgiven to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1 Cor 1:4
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
Remember Paul had written also of Believers that Grace was given them in Christ when ? 2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Even then the Grace was received by them because it was given, even before they had an actual being. So it wasn't a matter of it being offered to them then and they had a choice to reject the Grace given or accept it. No it was sovereignly given !
How is it even possible for someone who claims to have read the bible to believe in a doctrine that is completely blown to bits by one single verse of scripture?
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
And that's not the only verse that shows Calvinism to be the false teaching that it is.....
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
And there are many, many more!
The bible is full to the brim and running over with teaching that your own life testifies to the truth of! Does the life you live every day tell you that you can choose your own actions or does it tell you that you're a puppet on strings as this despicable Calvinist would have you believe? Do you love your family because you have no alternative or because you choose to do so? Why (How) would you be able to love God in any other fashion?
Use the mind that God gave you! Don't believe the literal nonsense that Calvinists try to teach! Not only does it not make any sense in its own right but it is all based on Greek paganism and has very little, if anything, to do with what the bible teaches.
Clete
Just such a beautifully elegant refutation of every single thing B57 stands for.
If his mind were not broken by his own doing, it would serve to convince even him.
This argument makes no sense!
Christ didn't bring Lazarus back from nonexistence, He simply had Lazarus return to his physical body. More accurately, Jesus commanded Lazarus to return to his body and "come forth" from the grave. The processes involved are, perhaps, items of interest and speculation, but certainly cannot be used as any sort of biblical proof of the doctrine of regeneration, which is nothing more than a rescue device created in response to other, more fundamental, fallacies inherent in the Calvinist's theological construct. Lazarus wasn't given anything he didn't already have, other than some more days in his physical body here on Earth.
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beloved57
Well-known member
So a person cannot receive anything, in regard to spiritual and heavenly things, unless its given to them from heaven Jn 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
So for instance, those who receive grace in Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
They receive it because God gave it to them! the word receive is a present active participle, but yet because this is concerning Spiritual and heavenly gifts, as John stated, it must be given from heaven, which giving is a perfect passive participle, the receiver is being acted upon and being caused to receive even though the active is being used. God is causing them to receive.
God calls us vessels, now when something is poured into the vessel, the vessel receives what has been poured into it. Regeneration is said to be the result of a pouring or shedding of mercy Titus 3:4-7
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7
That word shed is the greek word ekcheō:
Thats how we receive or obtain mercy
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
So for instance, those who receive grace in Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
They receive it because God gave it to them! the word receive is a present active participle, but yet because this is concerning Spiritual and heavenly gifts, as John stated, it must be given from heaven, which giving is a perfect passive participle, the receiver is being acted upon and being caused to receive even though the active is being used. God is causing them to receive.
God calls us vessels, now when something is poured into the vessel, the vessel receives what has been poured into it. Regeneration is said to be the result of a pouring or shedding of mercy Titus 3:4-7
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7
That word shed is the greek word ekcheō:
- to pour out, shed forth
- metaph. to bestow or distribute largel
Thats how we receive or obtain mercy
Well, the wheels on the bus go round and round! Here again we have b57 ripping a single sentence completely out of its context and applying it in a manner that has nothing AT ALL to do with what was being talked about in the actual text of scripture from which it was ripped. Let's read it together....
John 3:25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
So John the Baptist is simply telling his followers to chill out about the ascendance of Christ and about the descent of his own ministry. Prophets don't get to be prophets because they want to be. He's saying here that God decides who is and who isn't a prophet in Israel and He decides when one's ministry is going to flourish and for how long and for what purpose and besides that he told them all in advance that he wasn't the Messiah and that "He (Christ) must increase, but I (John) must decrease."Pretty simple stuff to understand if all you do is read more than one single sentence that is removed from its context.
If b57's application of that single verse was correct, he'd have to believe that John was losing his salvation, which is obvious nonsense.
Do I even have to go through the process again? This is getting a bit repetitive. Titus 3:4-7 simply does not teach anything like the idea that regeneration is something that is done to us for no reason and without our consent or knowledge, which is what Calvinism explicitly teaches and which b57 not only doesn't deny but openly acknowledges and embraces as the truth.
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
In short, no matter how many analogies you can stretch to the breaking point or how many Greek words you can look up on the internet, the idea that God is arbitrary is NOT in the bible - period. Therefore, Calvinism is not in the bible - period. Therefore Calvinism is false - period.Clete
Sinners choose for themselves to either receive the truth or rebel against the truth. God does not choose that for them. God's desire is that no sinner would rebel against the truth but if they do rebel then their rebellion is not God's fault for supposedly making it impossible for them to receive the truth. God reasons with lost sinners to come to Him and receive the truth. Whether they come or not is on them, not God.
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
You know what is most remarkable about this post?
The fact that you had to post it at all!
There are millions and millions of Calvinists all over the world all of whom call themselves Christians and say they love God and study the bible and go to church and do all the things that anyone might expect a Christian to do and yet here you are stating something that is so childishly simple, so blatantly and obviously true that it staggers the mind to think that anyone, including children, would ever need anyone to say it out loud!
How is it even possible that anyone could ever allow themselves to get to a place where someone would think that something so simple needs to be said? It's akin to having to remind someone at night that the sun comes back up in a few hours time.
beloved57
Well-known member
A man can receive nothing unless its given to him from above.
Are you assuming that a man cannot receive the ability to reject God and go to hell unless God grants him that ability? Do you assume that no sinner can hear God and reject the truth unless God grants him the ability to hear and know the truth before rejecting the truth and going to hell? I believe you assume too much based on a wrong interpretation of a select number of verses.
Do you not agree that sinners who hear God and understand the truth are not then made fools for rejecting what they know to be the truth? Do you not believe that the hearts of those who reject the truth are made darker for rejecting that truth? Do you not believe that God will deliver a sinner up to uncleanness if he rejects the truth?
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
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beloved57
Well-known member
Im not assuming anything. However speaking about spiritual and heavenly gifts,
A man can receive nothing unless its given to him from above.
Already directly refuted.
The fact that he simply repeats himself here as though nothing has been said in response is him telling an intentional lie.
This sort of thing doesn't happen, at least not on a regular basis, with people who aren't selling a pack of lies. Ignoring contrary evidence is the tactic of cultists, con artists and propagandists. B57 should have been a reporter for CNN.
beloved57
Well-known member
Your refutation is meaningless, The Truth stands:
A man can receive nothing unless its given to him from above.