The earth is flat and we never went to the moon

[ok doser]

Short quiz

Three cosmological models, which is the correct one?

What things do flat, geocentric, and heliocentric earth, all have in common?

1. I'll start with same calendar

2. What else?

--Dave

2. made of dirt
3. inhabited by non-intelligent life forms
4. lots of sky overhead
5. not so much sky underground
6. bacon!

 

[Yorzhik]

Fog appears even on clear days.

--Dave

Yeah, but the problem with the idea that fog or haze being in the way is that there are a great number of clear days throughout the year. But seeing Chicago mostly above the horizon happens at best only 2 times a year, and sometimes not at all in a year.

Seeing the lights on top of the tall buildings can be done quite often with good magnification, but the skyline is below the horizon.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave, this sort of argument bothers me greatly. This is flat out dishonesty. I know that you're doing the whole devil's advocate thing but some arguments just aren't even worth putting out there.

Up and down are relative terms. That means that up might mean an entire difference thing in one frame of reference than it does in another and in a third, it might have no meaning whatsoever.

As far as spheres, in general, are concerned, you're quite right, what is up or down on a globe is entirely arbitrary. We orient the globe the way we do, with the north pole at the "top", because globes were invented in the northern hemisphere and for no other reason. (If modern society had developed in the south, flat earthers would have a real problem. There'd be no "ice wall" and no way to explain how it's so much easier to get from Anchorage to Moscow by flying over...
What - the edge of the world?

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the way rivers run!

When we human beings, who live on the surface of the Earth, talk about 'downhill' and 'uphill' we are talking about the slope of the ground going along with the pull of gravity (down) or going against the pull of gravity (up).

Your argument makes the equivalent to a category error. You conflate two entirely different frames of reference. This is either intentionally misleading or it is an example of what I said before where flat-earthers misunderstand some concept and formulate objections that are based on their own misunderstanding and not the actual facts of reality.

The globe is "counter intuitive" to what we see and know about water is the point.

The globe is "counter intuitive" to what we experience as uphill and down hill, right side up and upside down as well.

Relativity did not begin with Einstein, it seems it began with globe earth.

--Dave

 

[ok doser]

if the earth is flat, how can rivers run "downhill"?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Yeah, but the problem with the idea that fog or haze being in the way is that there are a great number of clear days throughout the year. But seeing Chicago mostly above the horizon happens at best only 2 times a year, and sometimes not at all in a year.

Seeing the lights on top of the tall buildings can be done quite often with good magnification, but the skyline is below the horizon.

There are plenty of pictures of the Chicago skyline from across Lake Michigan.

I don't know when or how often that occurs, but here is a website that talks about it.

Chicago Skyline from Warren Dunes Across Lake Michigan
"This photo is really, really awesome because I think you're capturing some bizarre phenomenon. Theoretically, you shouldn't be able to see 60 miles away due to the curve of the Earth and your height. Even on a 200ft sand hill, your horizon should be 20 miles or so. But, I have heard that people in Michigan can sometimes see Chicago from the beach, which is just crazy."--Link

View attachment 25348

See more pictures

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Short quiz

Three cosmological models, which is the correct one?

What things do flat, geocentric, and heliocentric earth, all have in common?

1. They all have the same calendar.

2. They all account for eclipses.

3. Next?

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Except that has been refuted by science since the time that Christ walked on this beautiful little globe we live on.

Dave, how does gravity work?

Gravity is density turned into a "weak magnet" for a globe earth.

--Dave

 

[chair]

Gravity is density turned into a "weak magnet" for a globe earth.

--Dave

Dave. What is the definition of "density"?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave. What is the definition of "density"?

What is irony?

--Dave

 

[Clete]

Your attachments aren't showing up.

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I'll try to fix it in the morning.

Another thing I messed up was the metric system. I said millimeters and should have said centimeters. The average slope of the centrifugal bulge of the Earth is 1.34 centimeters per meter. That's still not very much but being off by a factor of ten is a little embarrassing.

 

[chair]

Dave. What is the definition of "density"?

Answer the question, Dave. I know what "density" means to a scientist. I would like to know what it means to you. You appear to have your own ideas about things like this.

 

[Bright Raven]

Where was that Apollo 13 module for 6 days Dave?

 

[JudgeRightly]

What is irony?

--Dave

Dave, where's that thread about flat earth vs Globe Flood models?

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[DFT_Dave]

Answer the question, Dave. I know what "density" means to a scientist. I would like to know what it means to you. You appear to have your own ideas about things like this.

If you have a point to make, make it.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Where was that Apollo 13 module for 6 days Dave?

In your basement? If you have a point to make, make it.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Short quiz

Three cosmological models, which is the correct one?

What things do flat, geocentric, and heliocentric earth, all have in common?

1. They all have the same calendar.

2. They all account for eclipses.

3. They all have the same continents, islands, rivers, oceans, etc.

4.

--Dave

 

[Clete]

Dave,

Why are the two celestial poles?

If the Earth is flat, with the stars rotating above the stationary Earth, how can there be two celestial poles and why can't you see Polaris from Chile?

 

[Clete]

The globe is "counter intuitive" to what we see and know about water is the point.

The globe is "counter intuitive" to what we experience as uphill and down hill, right side up and upside down as well.

Relativity did not begin with Einstein, it seems it began with globe earth.

--Dave

No, it isn't! But then again, if you throw out the idea of gravity, which, aside from its cause, is one of, if not the most tested and well-understood things in all of science, then almost nothing about how the world works is intuitive.

Frankly, I think we've beaten the water flow thing like a dead horse. Let's move on to something else.

Did you get a chance to watch that video about the horizon I posted?

 

[Clete]

Short quiz

Three cosmological models, which is the correct one?

What things do flat, geocentric, and heliocentric earth, all have in common?

1. They all have the same calendar.

2. They all account for eclipses.

3. They all have the same continents, islands, rivers, oceans, etc.

4.

--Dave

Is this the beginning of a guilt by association argument?

Let's talk about what they do not have in common.

People on the flat Earth...

1. would not see the same side of the Moon from every place on Earth.

2. would not see the Moon in the same phase from every place on Earth.

3. would not see a south celestial pole.

4. would not see the same stars in the southern sky from various places in the southern hemisphere.

5. would not see a circular Sun and Moon both high in the sky and near the horizon (they would become more and more elliptical as the angle got shallower).

6. would not see the angular size of the Sun and Moon remain constant as they moved towards and away from any particular location.

7. would not ever see the Sun, Moon, Stars or anything else in the sky set beyond the horizon.

8. would not see ocean currents flow the way they do (split by the equator into counter-rotating currents - flowing faster and faster as they go south and slowing way-way down as they flow north - with no causal mechanism whatseover.)

9. would not see an equatorial bulge.

10. would not weigh .5% less at the equator than they do at the North Pole.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Is this the beginning of a guilt by association argument?

Let's talk about what they do not have in common.

People on the flat Earth...

1. would not see the same side of the Moon from every place on Earth.

2. would not see the Moon in the same phase from every place on Earth.

3. would not see a south celestial pole.

4. would not see the same stars in the southern sky from various places in the southern hemisphere.

5. would not see a circular Sun and Moon both high in the sky and near the horizon (they would become more and more elliptical as the angle got shallower).

6. would not see the angular size of the Sun and Moon remain constant as they moved towards and away from any particular location.

7. would not ever see the Sun, Moon, Stars or anything else in the sky set beyond the horizon.

8. would not see ocean currents flow the way they do (split by the equator into counter-rotating currents - flowing faster and faster as they go south and slowing way-way down as they flow north - with no causal mechanism whatseover.)

9. would not see an equatorial bulge.

10. would not weigh .5% less at the equator than they do at the North Pole.

All of your examples are based on a false concept of flat earth which is why we must start with a correct one as per my quiz.

--Dave



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