Cross Reference
New member
If you want me to understand that then don't criticize anyone in an insulting way. Thank you.
ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement
- Thread starter TFTn5280
- Start date
If you want me to understand that then don't criticize anyone in an insulting way. Thank you.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Are you criticizing the criticizer???
It is a dark and swirling hole...
Sounds like you are insulting him for criticizing you...
And criticizing him for insulting you...
And both for both...
Have you tried the simple remedy of forgiveness, rather than correcting your brother?
He really and truly is not yours to correct...
It is vanity to correct another's servant...
It is blessed to correct your own...
You body is to be your servant...
Corrections there are a good thing...
Arsenios
Cross Reference
New member
Then why are you attempting to correct me?
Arsenios
Well-known member
What have I told you to do?
I was just talking with you about the black hole of correcting another,
And asking you if you had tried just correcting yourself...
And especially your own body...
If you are anything like me, that is full-time, bro...
An unruly donkey, that one...
A.
Cross Reference
New member
What have you told me to do???? Who are you? You take yourself to seriously.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Well, OK - I did tell you to man-up and stop whining about feeling insulted by people who disagree with you...
So I take it back - I DID tell you what to do... But it was in the form of serious jest...
A sinner - How about you?
SELF-denial is a serious matter...
I tried whining and snivelling, and it got me nowhere, I can tell you that...
I tried getting other people to be nice to me, and that failed too...
All SELF affirmation, you see, not self denial...
Self DENIAL,
as Christ commanded as the FIRST action of anyone
who is willing to be following Him,
doesn't yield to these sissy measures...
I can tell you that!
But you already know all that, yes?
Arsenios
Cross Reference
New member
1. I was not whining. I never whine.
2. Serious jest?? What is that but a swipe to belittle and expect it to be laughed off because the receiving party is supposed to know it was jest? Surely you wrongly 'jest'.
3. How 'bout this for a serious jest ___ bac' off.
The more you lie, the deep you get. The BYZ text doesn't have it.
Luke 9:23 ελεγενG3004 V-IAI-3S δεG1161 CONJ προςG4314 PREP πανταςG3956 A-APM ειG1487 COND τιςG5100 X-NSM θελειG2309 V-PAI-3S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS ελθεινG2064 V-2AAN απαρνησασθωG533 V-ADM-3S εαυτονG1438 F-3ASM καιG2532 CONJ αρατωG142 V-AAM-3S τονG3588 T-ASM σταυρονG4716 N-ASM αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ ακολουθειτωG190 V-PAM-3S μοιG1473 P-1DS
Ημερα is no where to be found there. It is an obvious Roman Catholic lie. It started in the vulgate, entered the Textus Receptus, and then the Orthodox Patriarch's bible.
Your desire to say that it is a daily requirement digs you even deeper into Roman Catholic masochist theology. It was very funny. Thou does realize the other gospels don't say it, does thou?
Has thou had enough?
rougueone
New member
TFTn5280
New member
What do ya say we get this back on track?
What do ya say we get this back on track?
Philippians 2.5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
What does it mean that Christ "emptied" himself? I've seen this clause alluded to on numerous occasions since joining TOL. I've heard it expressed as anything from the eternal Son emptying himself of divine attributes to assertions claiming that Christ actually emptied himself of divinity! I think that that idea is preposterous ~ seriously? the Father willed the Word away? Please! ~ but indeed some hold it. Is there clarity to be gained by examining this passage? I think there is.
The thrust of the passage is this: that the One who, before becoming human, possessed divine equality, did not regard that status as something to exploit, but instead understood it as a mission to obedient humiliation and death; and that the Father acknowledged this mission by exalting the One, forever now also a man, to share in divine glory.
Why do I say that Christ did not consider his divinity something to be exploited? Most translations say something on the order of the Son did not consider his equality with God something to be grasped, or did not consider it robbery, and interpret that to speak to the emptying of himself, perhaps of divine attributes, or of some or all of his divinity. To that I say, No, that is impossible. The eternal Son did not become something less than God when he took upon himself the flesh of humanity. In his own ministry Jesus interpreted himself as being fully divine. Look at John 14.9 "Anyone who has seen me has seen my Father." And in case his disciples should misunderstand, he went on to say, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work" (v. 10). How could Jesus truly manifest the divinity of his Father if he had divested himself of even an ounce of divinity? The answer is he couldn't have: "To see Me is to see My Father." Did the Father become something less than God when he sent his Son? No, of course not. That is absurd. We need to reconsider this emptying idea.
That said, the key word in unpacking this passage is not kenosis ~ to empty ~ but this very word we are questioning, harpagmos. We will see that the kenosis word clarifies itself, once we begin to understand the meaning of harpagmos. This verb appears only once in the NT, right here at the heart of this passage. It is not used in the Septuagint and it is rarely used in contemporaneous extra-biblical writings; however, in those contemporaneous writings that we do have, the word consistently conveys a meaning denoting exploitation (see N.T. Wright, “The Climax of the Covenant” for a full exposition of this word). Let us, therefore, take that meaning with us to the text.
The theme of this passage is the determination of the path Christ chose as the way to Lordship. The incarnate Christ was always in the morphe ~ or form ~ of God, but in and throughout his earthly ministry did not yet possess equality with God (hang with me). At any point of his fleshly ministry he could have taken advantage of his divinity ~ that is to say, he could have exploited it ~ but in doing so he would not have been representing the heart of his Father (How do we know this? Jesus said so: "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." It was Jesus in a humble state that truly revealed the heart of God). Rather than by way of exploitation, Jesus maintained his divinity via the path of humility, even unto death. This pleased the Father, who exalted this God-man Christ Jesus to the Glory that had previously only been exercised in divinity. Thus it was in the exaltation that Christ established his Lordship, a human being becoming equal with God the Father, forever over humanity.
How does our heavenly Father desire us to see him? Through the life of his Son, "who ~ being in nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant, born in human likeness ~ emptied himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!"
How does the Father desire to see us? Our "attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus": character stamped with the humility of God.
Blessings,
What do ya say we get this back on track?
Philippians 2.5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
What does it mean that Christ "emptied" himself? I've seen this clause alluded to on numerous occasions since joining TOL. I've heard it expressed as anything from the eternal Son emptying himself of divine attributes to assertions claiming that Christ actually emptied himself of divinity! I think that that idea is preposterous ~ seriously? the Father willed the Word away? Please! ~ but indeed some hold it. Is there clarity to be gained by examining this passage? I think there is.
The thrust of the passage is this: that the One who, before becoming human, possessed divine equality, did not regard that status as something to exploit, but instead understood it as a mission to obedient humiliation and death; and that the Father acknowledged this mission by exalting the One, forever now also a man, to share in divine glory.
Why do I say that Christ did not consider his divinity something to be exploited? Most translations say something on the order of the Son did not consider his equality with God something to be grasped, or did not consider it robbery, and interpret that to speak to the emptying of himself, perhaps of divine attributes, or of some or all of his divinity. To that I say, No, that is impossible. The eternal Son did not become something less than God when he took upon himself the flesh of humanity. In his own ministry Jesus interpreted himself as being fully divine. Look at John 14.9 "Anyone who has seen me has seen my Father." And in case his disciples should misunderstand, he went on to say, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work" (v. 10). How could Jesus truly manifest the divinity of his Father if he had divested himself of even an ounce of divinity? The answer is he couldn't have: "To see Me is to see My Father." Did the Father become something less than God when he sent his Son? No, of course not. That is absurd. We need to reconsider this emptying idea.
That said, the key word in unpacking this passage is not kenosis ~ to empty ~ but this very word we are questioning, harpagmos. We will see that the kenosis word clarifies itself, once we begin to understand the meaning of harpagmos. This verb appears only once in the NT, right here at the heart of this passage. It is not used in the Septuagint and it is rarely used in contemporaneous extra-biblical writings; however, in those contemporaneous writings that we do have, the word consistently conveys a meaning denoting exploitation (see N.T. Wright, “The Climax of the Covenant” for a full exposition of this word). Let us, therefore, take that meaning with us to the text.
The theme of this passage is the determination of the path Christ chose as the way to Lordship. The incarnate Christ was always in the morphe ~ or form ~ of God, but in and throughout his earthly ministry did not yet possess equality with God (hang with me). At any point of his fleshly ministry he could have taken advantage of his divinity ~ that is to say, he could have exploited it ~ but in doing so he would not have been representing the heart of his Father (How do we know this? Jesus said so: "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." It was Jesus in a humble state that truly revealed the heart of God). Rather than by way of exploitation, Jesus maintained his divinity via the path of humility, even unto death. This pleased the Father, who exalted this God-man Christ Jesus to the Glory that had previously only been exercised in divinity. Thus it was in the exaltation that Christ established his Lordship, a human being becoming equal with God the Father, forever over humanity.
How does our heavenly Father desire us to see him? Through the life of his Son, "who ~ being in nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant, born in human likeness ~ emptied himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!"
How does the Father desire to see us? Our "attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus": character stamped with the humility of God.
Blessings,
Last edited:
Cross Reference
New member
This is what I believe it means:
1.Christ is a Title. It perhaps, intimates the pre-incarnate form of the Word of God Who, in the beginning, was with God and was God per John 1:1. and in Whose image we were created. Jesus, of Mary, David and Adam was the body prepared for Him; the human sustance in Whom the Word would "empty" Himself. Certainly not His Divinity, because it could have placed the whole of God's plan for His creation in an irreversible condition had the human Jesus failed. Lucifer almost got away with doing that until his lack of allegiance to God was found out. IOW"S, The Love-allegiance of Jesus TO God, needed to be proven. That is what temptation is all about in case anyone is interested.
2. "Emptied Himself" means, the Word of God subjected himself to the humanity of Jesus. Jesus was given the responsibility of protecting the Word of the Godhead indwelling Him from Satan who needed Him destroyed by centering all his efforts on Jesus to get Him to fail. For His success would Jesus' allegiance to God be made manifest in every way He was directed by His Father when revealing Himself as a human being, a begotten son. It was that which could only accomplish the task given him.
In this, we might say the Word subjected Himself to the man Jesus and the man Jesus subjected himself to His Father. Trust was the word/order of the day. This issue of subjection was what I believe Jesus was alluding to when speaking of his equality with God as not being a robbery.
Now, convert all that to what we might suppose is the actuality of what happens when one is born aagain __ that he is of a new creation because of the obedience of the man, Jesus, and we are to know that our testing/proving centers around our taking up the afflictions of Jesus He left behind.
I truly hope this helps someone.
TFTn5280
New member
Thank you, CR. I can tell you've thought a lot about this.
Cross Reference
New member
Thanks and indeed, I have and have run out churches to attend on Sunday morn because of what I wrote you __ irrespective of denomination.
Arsenios
Well-known member
I stand corrected - Daily is not in the BYZ text...
Thank-you...
And yes, it is a daily part of the practice of the Orthodox Faith...
Are there days when you do NOT take up your own cross?
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
Arsenios
Well-known member
Well, the English cognate of this Greek word is HARPOON... harpagmos is a noun denoting the result of the action of the verb harpazo, which means:
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away
Classic understanding of the passage simply means that His Divinity is inherent in His Person which IS Divine, so that He by no means needs to steal it, or sieze it, or snatch it or carry it off by force... It is not something to be STOLEN... It is His by Nature...
The Kenosis the JW's love to think means emptying Himself of what He had by Nature, simply means His CONDESCENSION of adopting a frame of mind, a phronema, which He desires that man also attain... And that is the phronema of servanthood, humility, lowliness...
Indeed, the next line instructs us to "Be of THIS SAME MIND"... Showing that it is a state of mind, and not a state of power or status...
Arsenios
Last edited:
TFTn5280
New member
Well said.
The point is, if I seize upon or eagerly claim for myself that which is already mine, I have not stolen anything, nor would I consider it robbery to claim it ~ BUT I may indeed be exploiting it. That, at least, is the way the verb is used, when it is used, in the limited writings we have.
What Christ emptied himself of, was not someone else's, but that which was already, eternally his. Rather than exercise the divine equality that he had shared with the Father, he chose not to exploit, in order that he demonstrate the "mind" of the One who had sent him (see e.g., Joh 5.30). We are to be of that same mind.
Thanks,
Last edited:
Cross Reference
New member
You mean you might be presumptuous in doing that__ and you might be correct. God knows and will deal with you in either case. That is what learning God is all about, i.e., getting it right.
Moving on:
The man Jesus did not have to be Divine nor could he be and still die. For one thing, Divinity is not subject to obedience but, "willing" submission. Jesus was obedient.
Jesus had to be proven and that by the deliberate absence of the manifest presence of God he knew by faith resided within him. Jesus lived by his faith in God by the written word which explained Him.. His resulting quality of faith overcame the world to the degree Angels ministered to him when needed, not supposed indwelling divinity. [this would perhaps have been the case with Adam had he been faithful. Both he and Jesus were outside of God when tested for their allegiance]. You might say how come Jesus was shown such privilege? Answer that by asking yourself how come you don't have any fellowship from the liberal camp when discussing intimacy with God with them [if you do, that is]? Then who or what is the glory that lifts your head when alone in the soliltude of your walk IN the Lord in the world when pursuing such a relationship because it is your hearts desire and Satan accuses you?
From the manytimes alone David, we read this:
"LORD, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.
Many there be which say of my soul, There is no help for him in God. Selah.
But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.
I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.
I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.
Psalm 3:1-5 (KJV)
indeed, the way of Lord is a solitude way.
But that would be saying the man Jesus was Divine in his human life and in no need of being obedient. Submission is between equals. The man Jesus, absent Divinity, was nevertheless and because of God's trust in him, "full of Grace and Truth". Picture it: A human full of God's Grace and Truth __ and remaining that way by his uncompromising allegiance to God. With that perspect how now do you see our posibilities when pondering having his mind? And is this not also having the faith of Abraham to be included in this as being purely human?
Last edited:
TFTn5280
New member
It appears you are still struggling with acceptance of the hypostatic union (correct me if I'm wrong). Let go of your denial of it and you will know how it is that the human Jesus could be these things while not exercising his divinity over them.
I thought the remainder of what you said was helpful.
BTW, I was editing my post while you were writing your response to the unedited version.
Last edited: