toldailytopic: In your opinion what are some of the most convincing pieces of evidenc


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He says you are a sinner and you are, He says you will die and you will.

You haven't given me any proof God said those things. Yes, obviously I will die. All animals die. It's a fact of life. That isn't proof of the existence of one or more deities.

The exactness with which Christ is foretold in scripture is stunning. I laugh me when see the mutterings of Nostradamus but Christ is told with exactitude.

First, I have to disagree with you that the exactness is stunning. Much of what Christians use as proof of Jesus in the Hebrew Bible is warped interpretation and makes little sense.

Secondly, even if it did matched...exactly how difficult would it be to copy one document into another? It isn't.

Say my holy books describes a future hero to born in Jamaica. His mother will have dark hair. She will give birth on a warm night in the middle of the summer. The child's father will be a fair skinned man who works as an electrician. The people know this story.

400 years later there is a cult who believes a man, Phillip Pedro, is a hero among the people. He can save them from their suffering. They come together to write about him. His story? He was born in Jamaica. His mother had dark hair. He was born at 3am in July. His father worked as an electrician.

Now today, a couple thousand years later, we read both stories. Wow!!! How did they know? It must have been him. There isn't any other explanation. There isn't any way they were aware of the details of the hero, the details that had been passed down for generations and then wrote their own book to match those details. I mean, that just wouldn't be possible.

It appears you are trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. That just doesn't cut the mustard for any halfway serious conversation of the validity of Biblical accounts and certainly not as proof for the existence of God.


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Why is it irrational?

It is not impossible that god/s do not exist. Therefore, that is not evidence. All you provided here was some circular logic. This won't convince anyone.

Dena I edited my post #59 in this thread and added a much more easily accessible article on explaining what Guysmiley said. (It's up a page, so you might have missed my edit :) )


1. The real distinction between existence and essence in all creatures necessitates the existence of a God for whom existence and essence are the same, a God who is the very cause of existence in creatures.

2. The essential multiplicity of every creature necessitates the existence of an absolutely unitary cause. get the idea.


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This is a great question too, although I think it strays towards evidentialist Christianity... I suppose you have to seek it at some point, eh?

I thought the whole point of faith was having no evidence or certainty, or the evidence was revelation or influence from God?

If I were Christian the best way for me to defend it would be to say that all the evidence is personal and subjective.

Some do say that. Here is what the Catholic Church says:


31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7

And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8

33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.

34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

-Catechism of the Catholic Church



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It appears you are trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. That just doesn't cut the mustard for any halfway serious conversation of the validity of Biblical accounts and certainly not as proof for the existence of God.
That is somewhat the thesis Dr. Simon Greenleaf attempted to make the most use of when he set out to use the evidence found in The Gospels to disprove Jesus. He was one of the world's foremost authorities on judiciary evidence, one of the founding professors of the Harvard Law School and during his research into the evidence of The Holy Scriptures came to the conclusion that not only do we have more evidence of Jesus having lived, died and rose from the dead but he also came to believe in Him as Saviour and Lord. His book, "Testimony of the Evangelists," is rather inexpensive on Amazon. It's a very lengthy book. You should at least read the summary of it found here...

The most convincing argument that I read was the part where he described how the apostles spoke of themselves as failures and didn't use glowing words about themselves, as most any other author would do to give himself credibility. This he took as evidence of their sincerity.


A rock can not create it self out of nothing. But a supreme being can.

This rocket is nowhere near as complex as the earth. Did it get here by magic, or did a creator (engineering team) create it?


Nick, can you tell me why it's so obvious that this rocket was built by man?


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the fine tuning of the universe and our planet,how atoms work etc.It then occured to me that there was something behind this.


1. The real distinction between existence and essence in all creatures necessitates the existence of a God for whom existence and essence are the same, a God who is the very cause of existence in creatures.

2. The essential multiplicity of every creature necessitates the existence of an absolutely unitary cause. get the idea.

And praytell what essence may that may speculate and apply spurious intuitions yet, you simply don't know! Wholly unlike the existing rocket above...but that won't deter Nick!:chuckle:


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toldailytopic: In your opinion what are some of the most convincing peices of evidence that God exists?

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, the gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to [all people], because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So [all people] are without excuse.

Jesus, God's Word, is foremost for me. I believe He has made Himself clearly seen.


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I don't believe in the empirical approach, so I'd say the only convincing evidence for any adherent is found in the experience of God. Before that it's either a gamble or utility or both.


All I am sure of are my own experiences, especially the profound changes which have occurred in my personality since my wife and I have been together.

I can interpret the changes (from selfish to selfless) as having a variety of causes, from "I really haven't changed, I'm just being manipulative" to "divine workings to bring about such a drastic reversal in my previous thought process and behavior".

I choose the latter (in addition to giving my amazing wife credit), partially because I'm optimistic, but mostly because it makes me work harder daily to maintain a selfless attitude and behavior.
God set me on this path, but I must choose to remain on it.

All I can offer others is my personal experience, and what I have gained from it, and trust that God will reach them.
I strive to always act in love toward others, especially those who have doubts or outright animosity toward religion or spirituality.

Attempting to logic-bomb someone into a conversion just leaves emotional shrapnel and alienating wounds.

I still consider "I wish there were more Christians like you" the greatest compliment I have ever received.

Lost Comet

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The TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 9th, 2013 05:00 AM

toldailytopic: In your opinion what are some of the most convincing peices of evidence that God exists?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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My existence and felt relationship with the Whole.

What more do I need?


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For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


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For me, there are three strong arguments/evidences in favor of the existence of God.

One is the fact that existence is ordered. The energy that is being expressed as the universe is not being expressed as pure chaos. There are limits within the expressed chaos that enable order to occur. And it's through the relationship between chaos and order that the universe exists as it does. This simple and unavoidable fact forces us to consider the origin of those limitations, from which order has sprung. It doesn't prove that God exists, but it certainly invites the mind to contemplate this mysterious creative source, and the possibility of some purpose to existence (as order implies purpose).

The second is the phenomena of gestalt. Gestalt is a physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements that, when unified as a whole, its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts. The configuration results in a phenomena that far surpasses the possibilities inherent in the sum of the parts being configured. As an example: matter from energy, life from matter, and consciousness from living matter. Each opens up a whole new realm of existential possibilities that were not previously enabled and were not endemic to the elements involved. Gestalt shows us that the possibilities inherent within existence transcend our comprehension of it. And thus throws the door wide open to the very real possibility of God.

And the third bit of strong evidence for the existence of God is experiential. We humans need for God to exist, and that need is being fulfilled. It is built into our nature as human beings to seek the answers to those existential questions we have about the origin, nature, and purpose of our own being. And we acquired our nature through our place within the nature of the universe as a whole. In a very real way, the universe is contemplating it's own existence, through us. All of existence is seeking God.

Atheists like to use the "God of the gaps" argument against theism, but they completely overlook the real significance of their own observations, which is that the gap exists! The gap is there, and is real, and is within us all, even the atheists, themselves. It is that gap that causes us to need and to seek after God in the first place. And that gap, that need, is there as an expression of the whole universe, as we are manifestations of the universe expressing itself.

I've heard all the atheist's arguments against these evidences, and have found that they just don't hold their water.


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My answer may not be scientific or complicated, but for me the greatest thing that convinces me of the existence of God is the beauty of nature and the miracle of life. As I look at the beauty of a sunrise, the majesty of mountains, the beauty all over the world I am convinced of God's existance. I see Him in His creation. I remember a few years ago I was in the highlands of Scotland and as I watched the sunrise over the mountains I was reminded of the scripture which says:

'The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'

It's impossible for my mind to imagine life ever coming about in any other way than being created. Life can't spontaneously form itself. The complexity of the human body and the very fact that we are alive is a miracle. No one can convince me that this just came about by some kind of cosmic accident.

Another thing that convinces me of the existance of God is the change which happened in my own life after coming to know Him. My life has completely turned around, and I know I could never have done that in my own strength. If not for God, I would not be the person I am today.