ECT Truth of Protestantism

[Sheila B]

The Protestant Movement wasn't/isn't perfect, but there were some legitimate issues with the Catholic Church that they were not, and are not, willing to address. Like the issue of the papacy.

Protestants, in general, need to learn that while truth is important - you don't need to start a church over a minor difference in understanding. This is particularly a problem with those denominations that place all the emphasis on belief vs. works. They fail to understand that what is important is doing God's will, helping those in need, and keeping oneself pure from the world.

Catholics need a similar lesson: you don't need to agree on every piece of doctrine to be unified. In addition: the Church Fathers were just men like you and me. They had to study the scriptures and philosophy and debate to establish their doctrines - and these debates weren't necessarily settled in Godly manners. Accept that while tradition is a solid starting point for one's study of God, there is bound to be some error in there as well - and one needs to be able to openly disagree while maintaining Christian unity.

Remember: many of the early protestants didn't want to depart from Catholicism, but wanted to address issues internally. Rather, they were forced to because the Catholic Church at the time would rather kill them then open discussions on the matters at hand.

Basically, this is true, except that the Church was not interested in killing- just excommunicating!! Big difference! lol

But tragic results just the same, esp since Jesus said our unity is what would draw people to Him.

 

[HisServant]

Basically, this is true, except that the Church was not interested in killing- just excommunicating!! Big difference! lol

But tragic results just the same, esp since Jesus said our unity is what would draw people to Him.

Sorry, but the Pope and the RCC were very active in getting a lot of the reformers burned at the stake... it is true that most of the killings were done at the local level, but it is also true that the RCC sanctioned and encouraged it, and sometimes financially rewarded people for it.

 

[Sheila B]

Mostly because of pride, arrogance and the belief that fringe 'doctrines' have equal footing with the core of the Gospel.

It's no different than what is going in within the RCC and orthodox churches... they just manage it better.

It seems that a rejection of Tradition has caused divisions more than any other topic.
The Jews have revered the Mishnah (oral Torah) right alongside the Written Word. It came first!

Same for the Church.
Tradition is where the Scripture Old and New came from! The written words never came down from the sky all neatly packaged.
The Catechism is our Mishnah: an authoritative interpretation of scripture, and the answer to "what must I do to be saved" in every age.

 

[TulipBee]

If Protestantism is true, why in 500 years has there not been far more unity? Why the increasing fragmentation of beliefs?

Laying of hands and apostolic succession spread like wild fire. RCC is trying to contain the impossible. God is coming to town near you. No such thing as RCC. It's now called church

 

[Sheila B]

Sorry, but the Pope and the RCC were very active in getting a lot of the reformers burned at the stake... it is true that most of the killings were done at the local level, but it is also true that the RCC sanctioned and encouraged it, and sometimes financially rewarded people for it.

Martin and Calvin did their share. Certainly all dark periods of history.

The 10 Tribes that split from the Kingdom- and produced their own priestly class and altars... were they wrong or right to do so? It was out of fear that Jeroboam created his own "kingdom" apart from God's plan.
It seems to me that the church divisions were and are also out of fear.

 

[Sheila B]

Laying of hands and apostolic succession spread like wild fire. RCC is trying to contain the impossible.

The laying on of hands and fasting to ordain apostolic successors is certainly biblical! "Let another take his office"! and that was before Pentecost! No one argued with Peter, they chose another.

Paul ordained Timothy, Titus, Cletus and one in each church he founded... so did every apostle in every country where they spread.

Wild fire is a good term to describe the spread of the church. It was not impossible- the Holy Spirit is maintaining rcc just as He always has done and will do til the end.

 

[Sheila B]

What do you think the Tower of Babel that represents mans way of trying to get to heaven with man made bricks (works) was an OT prophecy of if not of all of the man made religions today?

I never thought of that! Great analogy!

To piggyback on that notion from another thread- the "woman" of Rev 12 -none of the "mothers of the Kings" of the 10 tribes were named except Jeroboam's. Why? Because God gave Jeroboam his Kingship. Not to split away from Judah, but to make Judah behave. It is an interesting way that scripture shows authority- to not name the Gebirah's that were false.

I feel the splits today are also God's way of keeping the rcc on track! We all need that type of fathering.

 

[TulipBee]

Sorry, but the Pope and the RCC were very active in getting a lot of the reformers burned at the stake... it is true that most of the killings were done at the local level, but it is also true that the RCC sanctioned and encouraged it, and sometimes financially rewarded people for it.

They excommunicated Michael Servetus and then they blamed John Calvin for it.

 

[TulipBee]

The laying on of hands and fasting to ordain apostolic successors is certainly biblical! "Let another take his office"! and that was before Pentecost! No one argued with Peter, they chose another.

Paul ordained Timothy, Titus, Cletus and one in each church he founded... so did every apostle in every country where they spread.

Wild fire is a good term to describe the spread of the church. It was not impossible- the Holy Spirit is maintaining rcc just as He always has done and will do til the end.

What's biblical with broken RCC apostolic sussession record with no early records of the early pope's names? The early catholics should have been jailed for fraud.

 

[Sheila B]

What's biblical with broken RCC apostolic sussession record with no early records of the early pope's names?

The records of the succession do exist.

 

[TulipBee]

The records of the succession do exist.

Nope. You're looking at modified records that makes you the biggest loser. You need to trim those extra traditions off your waist.

 

[Buzzword]

If Protestantism is true, why in 500 years has there not been far more unity? Why the increasing fragmentation of beliefs?

What is "Protestantism"?

Those who protested the Roman Church's unwillingness to reform itself called themselves "Protestants" initially in order to separate themselves semantically.

But there is no Protestant Church.

The initial breaking away led to individual Christians more adequately working out their own salvation, rather than relying on intermediaries other than Christ, both Catholic and Protestant.
These MEN claiming to work for GOD gradually grabbed more and more power via spiritual intimidation.

Which is still going on, though the papacy and its local representatives have backed off in the past thirty years with the surge of American political evangelicals taking their place.

And of course, as with the oppressive Roman Church in the Dark Ages, so to is the American evangelical power structure crumbling as INDIVIDUAL Christians break away from the rabid church-mob and its oppressive political maneuvering.

But instead of forming new denominations, which seems now to be a major root of the problem, these Christians clump together as nondenominational congregations, unhampered by the prejudiced and bigoted traditions of their elders and focused more on loving as Christ loved, helping the poor and oppressed and refusing to build any more spiritual ivory towers from which to look down upon the rest of the world.

But more than anything, this continual process of breaking away has allowed individual Christians to address the nuances and true implications of their beliefs, and cultivate those beliefs which match their life experiences and bring them into better relationship with God, each other, and God's created universe.

While sloughing off those beliefs which make zero sense in light of their life experiences, and/or which hamper their relationships with God, each other, and God's created universe.

The unexpected side-benefit of these results of breaking away is that it more tightly binds Christians into communities with the rest of the world.
We who engage in the world, who break away from the nonsensical beliefs of our elders and the prejudices which came with them, are as a result better equipped to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us.

Especially when both wear the "Christian" label.

We are also better equipped to relate to those who don't wear the label, and share the love of Christ instead of the hate we learned in church.

 

[Livelystone]

I never thought of that! Great analogy!

To piggyback on that notion from another thread- the "woman" of Rev 12 -none of the "mothers of the Kings" of the 10 tribes were named except Jeroboam's. Why? Because God gave Jeroboam his Kingship. Not to split away from Judah, but to make Judah behave. It is an interesting way that scripture shows authority- to not name the Gebirah's that were false.

I feel the splits today are also God's way of keeping the rcc on track! We all need that type of fathering.

Interesting post, thanks for sharing your observation on Jeroboam

Not so sure about splits being beneficial as God is not the author of confusion........... Satan is the one who gets credit for that.

What I do believe is the falling away happend at the end of the first generation of apostles just as prophesied of in Daniel that ushered in the abomination of desolation, This was because the truth had gone out of the sacrifices of the church being offered to God in the temple of our hearts that are the praises heard coming from our lips

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name


However, and as Paul taught, he and the others were a prophecy of a ministry that would rise up in the third day (now) that would become a second generation of prophets and apostles who would usher in an end time revival witnessed with many signs and wonders as the truth would finally be taught again and within every house and gathering all offering up praises acceptable to God while glorifying His Holy Name.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Unlike what is usually taught about the above verse, the words translated as "one born out of due time" refers to a premature birth before the time when the child was expected to appear. In other words the NT Apostles were a prophecy of a new generation of not just apostles and prophets but manifested sons of God born from the same seed coming from the tree of life that first appeared in Jesus Christ

Ro.8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


They are the male child appearing in Revelation that is the story of the unveiling of Christ in us our hope of Glory

 

[Cross Reference]

If Protestantism is true, why in 500 years has there not been far more unity? Why the increasing fragmentation of beliefs?

Why blame Protestantism for lack of unity. Why not blame religion in general __ including the CC who were, as well, not in union and further fragmented as history and current events reveal? Where is God in any of it except His Divine plan, set in Jesus Christ, is further advanced to, what can now be seen as a, near conclusion.

 

[patrick jane]

i'm from the church of "what's happening now"

 

[oatmeal]

The records of the succession do exist.

History is useless unless understood from a scriptural perspective.

From a spiritual perspective, that is, not being carnally minded, but spiritually minded. Romans 8:1-16

The history of the RCC is a spiritual tragedy, much like King Saul who was rejected by God, God put David in as replacement.

 

[Jedidiah]

...The history of the RCC is a spiritual tragedy, much like King Saul who was rejected by God, God put David in as replacement.

This is another reason for it, Sheila; thank you Oatmeal.

A lot of people perceive things in the Old Testament and in Revelation, happening today.

 

[Jedidiah]

Also, this isn't just an anti-Catholic sentiment but a fundamental belief that it's OK to not desire unity in the Body of Christ. I'd like to see any Scripture that supports that belief because I can't find it.

 

[Buzzword]

Also, this isn't just an anti-Catholic sentiment but a fundamental belief that it's OK to not desire unity in the Body of Christ. I'd like to see any Scripture that supports that belief because I can't find it.

Aside from the most vicious (ie, those who look forward to watching certain people roast in hell for eternity), most Christians and church people DO desire unity.

But because too many people have been convinced since time immemorial that unity can or should only happen when every single person believes the exact same thing about everything, nobody can decide to be unified.

Especially when individuals (especially those of my generation) present nuanced opinions and beliefs on issues which our elders think are and should be black-and-white.

Everybody wants to feel like they're part of a community, but there is such a thing as a deal-breaker.
One of mine, for example, is when people praise God for atrocities being committed around the world because they honestly believe that more atrocities means Jesus is coming back sooner.

I cannot be part of such a community, because in my perspective that is not only praising those who commit atrocities as if they are agents of God, which is abhorrent, but betrays a mindset which is set against any kind of work toward making the world better here and now.

 

[Jedidiah]

Aside from the most vicious (ie, those who look forward to watching certain people roast in hell for eternity), most Christians and church people DO desire unity...

I tried and failed to present the nuance. Sure, I agree that everybody in the Body wants unity, given ideal conditions; I grant that. What I was trying to point out is that many, many Christians think that it's OK to not "prioritize" unity, to not "fast-track" unity, to "put it on the back-burner." This is demonstrably and obviously true. There are precious few believers who've openly and obviously dedicated their lives to pursuing unity in the Body.

...But because too many people have been convinced since time immemorial that unity can or should only happen when every single person believes the exact same thing about everything, nobody can decide to be unified...

I agree with the thought. I don't know that it's as "bad" for lack of a better word, as you portray though. There are very few issues upon which the Body disagrees, though they are lightning-rod, divisive, highly-charged issues. In order to find unity, we have to think this thing through, make plans, organize. This is the internet age.

...Especially when individuals (especially those of my generation) present nuanced opinions and beliefs on issues which our elders think are and should be black-and-white.

Everybody wants to feel like they're part of a community, but there is such a thing as a deal-breaker.
One of mine, for example, is when people praise God for atrocities being committed around the world because they honestly believe that more atrocities means Jesus is coming back sooner...

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of atrocities either. I couldn't agree to support atrocities on any level. I think that such thinking comes from fatalism, or determinism, which to me militates against the Gospel.

And the Gospel is something I think we all need to agree on, incidentally, to be truly one.

...I cannot be part of such a community, because in my perspective that is not only praising those who commit atrocities as if they are agents of God, which is abhorrent, but betrays a mindset which is set against any kind of work toward making the world better here and now.

Yep, fatalism, again.

:luigi: