What Jesus do you believe on ?

marke

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marke



This is error and promotes Election/Salvation based upon works, what a person does ! It denies Grace !
The first group of humans who were called of God to the feast rebelled, so He had to cast them away. That just goes to show you that not all who are called are chosen.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
 

Omniskeptical

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If as you say, that Jesus meant angels, then clearly it would have been known that Jesus was claiming to be something other than God. Rather, what he said caused them to try to take him again for blasphemy, and reinforced what they already believed; that he claimed to be God
They were slandering him.
They believed it because of what he said.
Why should I believe anything that comes out of the mouths of liars?
 
They were slandering him.
Why were they? Since you don't want to believe that it was because Jesus claimed to be God, tell us why they were slandering him.

Why should I believe anything that comes out of the mouths of liars?
Because Pilot did. And not one person denied that Jesus claimed to be God; they all believed it and some actually believed he was. And you haven't given one witness from that time who testifies that Jesus did not claim to be God. It wasn't only the "liars" who were crying out, "crucify Him".

"Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." - Matthew 27:25

Why did they want to crucify him????
Do you know why they wanted to stone Jesus?
I don't see where you answered my very first question.
 

Omniskeptical

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Why were they? Since you don't want to believe that it was because Jesus claimed to be God, tell us why they were slandering him.
Money and power, of course. And they accused him of slandering/blaspheming God. Wasn't that special?

Why did they want to crucify him????

I don't see where you answered my very first question.
Why would they not want to crucify him, is a better question.
 

JudgeRightly

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And they accused him of slandering/blaspheming God. Wasn't that special?

There are three possibilities, and I'm pretty sure you haven't considered the ramifications of them all, their logical conclusions and how they affect your position.

The first possibility is that Jesus was not blaspheming God (because He was not claiming to be God), and they were simply bearing false witness against Him.

The second possibility is that Jesus WAS blaspheming God by claiming to be God even though He was not, and they were justly accusing Him of such.

The third possibility is that Jesus WAS claiming to be God, and they fully recognized His claim as such, but since they hated Him, they couldn't accept that He was, in fact God, and simply wanted Him dead, and since claiming to be God, according to their laws (they followed the law strictly, almost if not to the point of idolatry of it) doing so was punishable by death by stoning, which they attempted to do multiple times.

The last option you seem to be dismissing without reason.

Questions: Regardless of what the others claimed, was Jesus committing blasphemy by saying the words (and particularly the highlighted portion):

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.I and My Father are one.” - John 10:25-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:25-30&version=NKJV

If your answer is "No, by saying the above, Jesus was NOT committing blasphemy," then your only option is to say that they were bearing false witness against Him.

But then you must answer another question:

Was what Jesus said not blasphemy and making Himself out to be God, even though He was a man, because:
A) He was not claiming to be God? OR
B) He WAS claiming to be God because He IS God, and therefore what He said would not be blasphemy?

If your answer is A, then please specify what exactly it was that He said that made them pick up stones to stone Him with, that is NOT inconsistent with the reason they provided, which is (regardless of whether they were lying about it or not):

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” - John 10:33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:33&version=NKJV

However, if your answer is B, you are no longer consistent with your view that Jesus is not God.

But here is where the real problem for you arises. If you said "Yes, Jesus was committing blasphemy" to my above question 1), you must now establish A) what it was that He said that classifies as blasphemy (and apply this reasoning to ALL of scripture) and B) why it is blasphemy for Him to say it, and 2) you must acknowledge that what His accusers were NOT in fact lying when they accused him of 1) blasphemy and 2) making Himself, a man, to be God, and that would ALSO be contradictory to your position that they are liars.
 

Omniskeptical

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I and My Father are one.”
This is an obvious Hebraism meaning they followed each other.

You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.
Here is the slander that he slandered God.

ὢν ποιεῖς σεαυτὸν θεόν
Also this phrase with ποιεῖς implies he did what God does. It would be wrong for Mankind to do things god does, even if it means creating the world. Literally, you a human being such of what you work yourself the God.

He worked himself to be the God? It sounds silly and heretical. Poieis/ποιεῖς is verb about actions, not objects. since all lexicons claim its both, they should be corrected with better lexicons.

The problem does not arise, and the rendering into English needs to be improved.
 
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JudgeRightly

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First of all, I asked you specific questions about what you believe, Omni. By ignoring them, you weaken your own position simply because it makes your position look like it's not defensible.

This is an obvious Hebraism meaning they followed each other.

So what about the rest of what He said in the passage I quoted?

Here is the slander that he slandered God.

I'm not sure if you are considering "slandering God" to be blasphemy. Are you?

ὢν ποιεῖς σεαυτὸν θεόν
Also this phrase with ποιεῖς implies he did what God does. It would be wrong for Mankind to do things god does, even if it means creating the world. Literally, you a human being such of what you work yourself the God.

He worked himself to be the God?

So the Jews who had surrounded Jesus were not lying when they claimed He blasphemed God by claiming to be God when He wasn't?

It sounds silly and heretical.

That's because you're trying to understand what is being said in KOINE by using modern English grammar.

Sentence structure is slightly different in Greek than it is in English, but you should have already known that.
 

Omniskeptical

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I'm not sure if you are considering "slandering God" to be blasphemy. Are you?
Yes.
So the Jews who had surrounded Jesus were not lying when they claimed He blasphemed God by claiming to be God when He wasn't?
No, he was doing things that they thought only God should do. But they claimed he slandered [him] too.
Sentence structure is slightly different in Greek than it is in English, but you should have already known that.
Understatement of the year. I do know that, and it is more than slightly different.
 
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Omniskeptical

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So they weren't slandering Him? They weren't lying about Him?
There were two lies made by the Judahites. They say he slandered God by misrepresenting him, and they claimed he was doing things only god should do. One was an intentional lie and slander about who slandering God, and the other was a delusional charge of doing what God does. Usually no can do what God does.

Remember he pardoned the sins of people. Who can pardon [the] sins except God?
 

JudgeRightly

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There were two lies made by the Judahites. They say he slandered God by misrepresenting him,

By Jesus misrepresenting God? or by the Jews misrepresenting Jesus?

and they claimed he was doing things only god should do. One was an intentional lie, and the other was a delusional charge of doing what God does. Usually no [one] can do what God does.

Was Jesus doing what God does?
 

JudgeRightly

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Supposedly he was slandering God by representing him.

Could you point out, specifically, where Jesus was slandering God?

And do you consider an accurate representation of what someone is doing to be slander?

He had the power to pardon the consequences of certain sins. And he did this with his father.

You don't seem to be answering my question.

You said:

they claimed [Jesus] was doing things only [G]od should do.

Was Jesus doing things that only God does? Yes or no.
 

Omniskeptical

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Could you point out, specifically, where Jesus was slandering God?

And do you consider an accurate representation of what someone is doing to be slander?



You don't seem to be answering my question.

You said:



Was Jesus doing things that only God does? Yes or no.
Yes, he was pardoning sins with the help of God. You are getting far too confused.

I said supposedly he was slandering or mocking by representing him. Do you know what that means? It means the Jews were surprise, surprise, lying.
 
Money and power, of course.
They were lying about Jesus for money and power? You mean by lying they were going to get rich and powerful? How so?

And they accused him of slandering/blaspheming God. Wasn't that special?
They accused him so they would become rich and powerful? In what way?

Why would they not want to crucify him, is a better question.
They would not want to crucify him if they believed what he said. Do you have a better answer?
Would you tell us why they wanted to crucify him?

Pilate clearly understood and became the more afraid.
"The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;"
Why was Pilate "the more afraid"?
 
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JudgeRightly

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They were lying about Jesus for money and power? You mean by lying they were going to get rich and powerful? How so?


They accused him so they would become rich and powerful? In what way?


They would not want to crucify him if they believed what he said. Do you have a better answer?
Would you tell us why they wanted to crucify him?


Why was Pilot "the more afraid"?

Btw, it's Pilate. :)
 

Omniskeptical

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They were lying about Jesus for money and power? You mean by lying they were going to get rich and powerful? How so?
They were already rich and powerful, which is not what the Jews, Israelite law enforcement should be.
They accused him so they would become rich and powerful? In what way?
See above.
They would not want to crucify him if they believed what he said. Do you have a better answer?
Would you tell us why they wanted to crucify him?
Because he was a threat to their power.
Why was Pilate "the more afraid"?
Because he had the sense to be afraid, and they didn't.
 

Omniskeptical

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Could you point out, specifically, where Jesus was slandering God?

And do you consider an accurate representation of what someone is doing to be slander?



You don't seem to be answering my question.

You said:



Was Jesus doing things that only God does? Yes or no.
Yes, by pardoning sins.
 
They were already rich and powerful, which is not what the Jews, Israelite law enforcement should be.

See above.

Because he was a threat to their power.
How could Jesus be a threat? He was a poor man without a place to lay his head. What made him a threat? What were they concerned about?

Because he had the sense to be afraid, and they didn't.
Again, he had the sense to be afraid of what? What was Pilate afraid of? What was he "the more afraid" of?

"Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him:"
 
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