10 things I'm right about, whether you agree or not.

godrulz

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In other words, I just made you look like an idiot, because you can't refute the context of the verses.

Doesn't matter. There never has been and there never will be a single Roman Catholic Christian.

Not even the Pope?:jawdrop: :dizzy:

Do you believe the Pope is the Antichrist? I am pretty sure he is not Protestant, at least.

Judas was in a state of belief when he was chosen. He became a betrayer and was going off track near the beginning.

The condition in the John context was the sheep who hear his voice. Some sheep later reject His voice and become black sheep. Have you not read baa baa black sheep?
 

red77

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What would Tourettes Syndrome be classified as? in the dark ages I'm sure it would have been akin to being posessed by a demon but what would you have to say about this one mystery?

Mystery? Are you avoiding this by any chance?

:idunno:
 

BillH

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Mystery, you r"biblical quote" had to have been generated randomly...it was completely off the mark.
 

BillH

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Knight,

your namecalling hollows out whatever point you might have been trying to make.

Read Paul...read all of his letters...in 90+% of them...he's writing DIRECTLY to BELIEVERS.....if we're so "saved" (in the english "past perfect" sense of the term)....why does he spend so much time talking about sin, persevering, enduring, running the race to the end. Why does he talk about "hope" if he's and his believers are so "past perfect" saved?

2 Tim. 2: 11-12 – "If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him.

why the ifs....they are chock full in his letters to BELEIVERS.

OSAS puts God's mercy in a little tiny timebox. Your small view of time...tries to shoehorn His mercy into a silly altar call.

Jesus asks us to follow, remain in him, obey him....not agree to follow him, and then fall away after the heady altar call.

Viewing salvation as a life long yes..makes so much more sense of so much more of the Bible...you don't have to contort God's audience into little odd categories in order to keep it sensible. His words are far more powerful (and at the same time elegant) than that.

OSAS actually means we don't even have to love God. How ludicrous is that?
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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He was called an apostle. Jesus did not pick a devil, a son of perdition, to be part of His inner circle of ministry after a night of prayer to the Father. He became a betrayer. He was not chosen in that state.

If you want to quibble that he was not a Christian, I agree, since this was pre-cross, but he still was a disciple/believer, who fell away. Change your theology, not the Bible. OSAS is indefensible.
I would have to disagree that Judas or others like him qualify as believers. He possessed no saving faith and thus was never one of the elect of God. At best Judas was one of many that possessed temporary faith. Saving faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust.


Knowledge, a cognitive function, is the foundation of saving faith. Men must “love the truth in order that they may be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). “Faith” that is devoid of knowledge is “believing the lie” that ultimately condemns (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

Assent cognitively provides the conviction that the knowledge so acquired about Christ is indeed true and one’s spiritual needs are actually (not merely experientially) met by the provisions of Christ’s gospel. The unsaved can know the gospel’s propositions, and clearly comprehend how these propositions play their part in the Good News, yet still not believe in their factual truth or that they meet his or her needs spiritually. For example, see Matthew 21:25; Mark 11:31; Luke 1:20; John 2:22; Acts 8:12; Romans 4:3, and much more.

Trust (assent): as assent is cognition passed into conviction, so trust (fiducia) is conviction passed into confidence. Confidence is the most characteristic act of saving faith, for the sinner transfers reliance for pardon, cleansing, righteousness in complete abandonment to Christ—joyfully received and rested upon for his salvation. This is an essential component of faith, otherwise a person’s “faith” is just the same as those of demons (James 2:19 and Matthew 8:29), who possess no cognitive love for Christ—instead they cognitively hate Christ—refusing to trust Him.

Matthew 24:10, Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 1:19; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 4:10, Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22 all teach that “temporary faith” exists, and it is not truth faith in Christ as described above. Just as in Matthew:

Mat 13:20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while [endures = proskairos = temporary], and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Likewise, as in 2 Peter 2:20-22, we find the Scriptures teaching that it is quite possible to have exhilarating and uplifting experiences of the power of the gospel, to have close contact with forces operating in the kingdom of God’s grace, such that the effects produced in a person are indistinguishable from those produced by true regenerating and sanctifying grace. Yet these experiences do not partake of Christ nor are its experiencers heirs to eternal life. These persons who have this temporary "faith" were never one of the elect of God, were never regenerated, and thus are not true believers. The prima facie evidence of their temporary "faith" is that they fall away from the faith, as John so rightly states in 1 John 2:19.
 
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Mystery

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Mystery, you r"biblical quote" had to have been generated randomly...it was completely off the mark.
Go to hell, Bill.

The context is eternal life, and that those who have it NEVER perish.

Until you are ready to stop calling Jesus a liar, there is really no reason to take you seriously.

You will not address what Jesus said, because you cannot. :loser:
 

BillH

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Mr Religion,

"Saving faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust."

So it requires action, mental or otherwise, on our part?
 

Varangian

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Mr Religion,

"Saving faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust."

So it requires action, mental or otherwise, on our part?

Not in the sense you mean it, no. The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (justification) precedes and creates that faith and is entirely the work of God.
 

BillH

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So you're saying that we have no obligation to love God. We can actually hate God..be indifferent to him...and be saved?
 

Mystery

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Not even the Pope?:jawdrop: :dizzy:
The Pope is no more Christian than Joseph Smith, Benny Hinn, or you.

Do you believe the Pope is the Antichrist?
What is the "Antichrist"? Anyone who denies that the sacrifice of Jesus is ONCE for ALL, is anti-Christ. That is the Pope and you, to name two.

Judas was in a state of belief when he was chosen.
These verses prove that you are a false teacher. You ignored them, because they abolutely contradict you.

Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. "And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."

Jesus knew from the beginning when He chose Judas that he did not believe.

In fact, Jesus spoke of many who said they did believe, but Jesus knew they did not...

"As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's offspring, and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You shall become free '?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. "And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. "I know that you are Abraham's offspring; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?"

Jesus said that these Jesus had believed Him, but Jesus knew that they were of their father the devil.

Here is more proof that destroys your false doctrine...

"Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man."

You have NO argument against this, godrulz, so you must concede that you have believed a lie, and admit that you are in error.

I will be waiting for you to apologize.
 

Varangian

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So you're saying that we have no obligation to love God. We can actually hate God..be indifferent to him...and be saved?

No. In order to be saved we must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration will always manifest itself in both faith and ultimately good works, but initial act is entirely the work of God.
 

Mystery

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So you're saying that we have no obligation to love God. We can actually hate God..be indifferent to him...and be saved?
Why don't you come back and chat after you have read the bible. Maybe you will get one for Christmas.

"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me."

"If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him."

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."
 

godrulz

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Did I not just say as much already? Or is this a dig--the genetic fallacy ploy you pull often?:rolleyes:

I was building upon your great wisdom, commending you for your tripartite understanding of saving faith.

Why the paranoia? What do you mean by genetic fallacy and how do I pull this on you (e.g.?).
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I was building upon your great wisdom, commending you for your tripartite understanding of saving faith.

Why the paranoia? What do you mean by genetic fallacy and how do I pull this on you (e.g.?).
My bad. I sincerely apologize. I omitted the latin in my post for I thought it would not serve much purpose.

As to your other question, you frequently discount things using the guilt by association tactic (genetic fallacy) instead of dealing with the issue at hand substantively. Just like your recent "another Calvinist invention" post, versus taking the time to attempt to deconstruct my argument, as any decent theology degreed person would be expected to do.
 

Adamhart

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1. A Christian cannot lose salvation.

2. The sacrifice of Jesus was not "limited", but for all men, for all time.

3. God wants all men to be saved, not just a predetermined "elect".

4. Paul did not struggle with sin post conversion.

5. The creation was a literal 6 days (24 hours).

6. There is no such thing as "mental" illness.

7. Time is a measurement between two events.

8. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

9. No man is justified by works

10. Salvation is an exchanged life, not a changed life.


:cheers:


So your faith and opinion is so powerful, it's fact?

Don't worry, I'm not denying everything:cow:
 

Spitfire

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BillH you really are an idiot. And you proved it beyond all doubt by referencing Romans 2. Romans 2 is not referring to the saved, its referring to the unsaved (which will be judged).
God will only judge the wicked according to their works? :squint:

I don't see why God would institute either natural or ceremonial law if the sole purpose of its existence is to find us (until we become saved) guilty of failure to keep it, if we are already unworthy of salvation had Christ not merited us to be justified in the first place. Romans 2 does seem to be addressing the issue of salvation, actually. Unless one is going to contend that "eternal life" (Romans 2:7) or "justification" (Romans 2:13-16) don't necessarily have something to do with "salvation."
 

BillH

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Mystery,

So if someone never loves God, never loves God's children, and/or stops loving God....he will still be saved?

Avoid off-base scriptures...as above...and just answer the question please.
 
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