About that atheism thing…

[Evoken]

As some friends and fellow TOLers have noticed, some of whom have sent me messages asking about it (thanks! ), and for others who have yet to notice but who knew what I previously believed: I no longer consider myself a Catholic nor a theist.

As to what lead to this change, it had been some time in the making, reaching a tipping point about a year and a half ago. But the short of it is that I don’t see the hand of an all loving, knowing and powerful God at work in the world or what is said to be his Church; rather, I see a God who does his hardest to remain hidden and everything unfolding in a way that one would expect if such a God was not active in the world or simply didn’t exist. I find myself in an universe in which no process attests to God's activity within it.

As my faith in God, the supernatural and the Catholic Church waned, I came to a point where I realised that I was not being honest with myself if I continued on that path. The lack of evidence for God and for the supernatural reality entailed by the beliefs I was holding by faith lead to an internal conflict that kept piling up and by the end I came to realise that I was holding on to the faith due to an emotional attachment to it and not because I still believed in it. But there was no integrity to be found in that setup and I got nothing but cognitive dissonance out of it; so I let go.

While I am an atheist now, I do not consider myself a strong/militant atheist, that is, I don’t make the claim that I know for a fact that God does not exists. Nor do I have a penchant for bashing God or religion. Rather, my disbelief arises for the most part from a lack of evidence and this lack of evidence leads me to think the existence of God or the supernatural is unlikely and I thus live my life as if it doesn’t exists. But as new evidence can always emerge which can change one’s mind, I do not adopt the strong/militant stance as some atheists do.

I wasn’t sure at first what to write for this OP, my original idea was to write a longer post detailing everything but I opted instead for not writing an essay and for leaving things a bit less formal and open, letting the thread unfold by itself and then ride along with it.

The above is condensed for the sake of brevity but I’d be willing to expand on it. So, yeah, I’d be open to discuss things and answer any questions you may have about this change. Hopefully it can be done in a friendly, conversational and respectful manner :cheers:


Evo

 

[Truster]

You have always been without the Almighty. Your religion along with the lies you were told gave a degree of satisfaction for a while. I'm really pleased for you and suggest you get away from anything and anyone that has the slightest inclination towards heaven and the heavenly.
The fact you felt the need to come and post here is proof you are not yet free of the superstition and I hope that you see that. If a man gives up smoking he stays away from tobacco. A man who is recovering from gambling wouldn't go to Vegas and so you must stay away from the objects of your superstitions.

The further away from religion you get the safer you'll be.

 

[zoo22]

You'll likely be getting a lot of that evo. Folks telling you what you did or didn't really believe, discounting you and your own experiences. There are a lot of ways folks write it off. But also, some folks really step up.

Brace yourself... From my experience starting a thread like this, you're in for a wild ride.

My sea change

For me, it's become increasingly illuminating observing religion. Particularly at TOL. TOL played a big role in my "conversion," and has played an even bigger role in my becoming settled with it.

 

[One Ugly Christian]

I was not being honest with myself......

Perhaps you should ask if your honestly seeking and looking for answers.

You've heard that "we are all sinners." I've always though that is a weak, unclear way to explain it to nonbelievers and think perhaps a better way of saying it is "we are all sick." We all have pains and things in our lives we don't even recognize and they affect who we truly are inside. People are blinded by anger, resentments, abuses in their past, jealousy and 10,000 other things both internal and external. The bottom line is that God is so Pure and so "above us" that without humility there's no way to find Him.

When I was young and extremely immature I was stupid enough to tell Christians that they were weak and needed the crutch of God because of it. I had to be beaten down like a dog and land in the gutter before I would admit that I was even more weak and before I was willing to humble myself.

Don't be me.

 

[Truster]

''Salvation belongs to Yah Veh'' (Jonah)

Religion, on the other hand, belongs to man.

 

[journey]

Many people call themselves Christians because they go to church and warm a pew from time to time. In other words, they never became real Christians. Real Christians become stronger in their faith because of their walk with God. You can only be Saved once, and it's forever.

 

[The Berean]

Just curious what would you consider "evidence" of God's existence, Evoken?

 

[Spitfire]

I never perceived any reason to ask when I already knew.

 

[Evoken]

You have always been without the Almighty. Your religion along with the lies you were told gave a degree of satisfaction for a while.

Well, if you are of the opinion that Catholicism is a false religion and that those who adhere to it are “without the Almighty” then I guess you are entitled to that view. But you wouldn’t need to search too hard within this very forum to find another Christian who thinks you are “without the Almighty” as well because you hold to a different doctrine than him. Yet both of you would have that same strong conviction that you are “with the Almighty”, that you have the truth on your side and that you are really conforming yourself to his will.

The fact you felt the need to come and post here is proof you are not yet free of the superstition and I hope that you see that.

As I said in the OP, I was being asked by a few TOLers about this and some who interacted with me were doing so under the impression that I was still a Catholic. So to avoid confusion and instead of continuously making individual messages for people who asked me, I decided to start a thread to let people know about this change and so that those who want can ask questions about it. I’ve been a member of this site since 2006, I didn’t suddenly decide to register here to make this thread.

The further away from religion you get the safer you'll be.

Easier said than done I’d think; religion is quite a force in society


Evo

 

[Evoken]

You've heard that "we are all sinners." I've always though that is a weak, unclear way to explain it to nonbelievers and think perhaps a better way of saying it is "we are all sick." We all have pains and things in our lives we don't even recognize and they affect who we truly are inside. People are blinded by anger, resentments, abuses in their past, jealousy and 10,000 other things both internal and external. The bottom line is that God is so Pure and so "above us" that without humility there's no way to find Him.

Fair enough. Sick in what sense do you mean? If what you mean is that we are all capable of performing evil acts, of feeling resentment, anger and jealously towards others be it by acting out of ignorance, selfishness or some other reason; then such is indeed something we are prone to. But we are also such that we are capable of performing good acts, of feeling trust, kindness and love towards others. We are not perfect and so we don’t always excel in virtue as we should and we are not always as we should be with respect to our fellow humans; but this is not something that I see as a supernatural issue (flowing from something like the fall and Original Sin) needing an equally supernatural solution (the grace of God).

When I was young and extremely immature I was stupid enough to tell Christians that they were weak and needed the crutch of God because of it. I had to be beaten down like a dog and land in the gutter before I would admit that I was even more weak and before I was willing to humble myself. Don't be me.

I used to think like this back as a teenager (I didn’t grow up religious) and I am aware that a lot of atheists and “free thinkers” tend to brush off Christians as weak minded sheep who can’t think for themselves. But I don’t personally hold that opinion.

Thanks for your message OUC


Evo

 

[Truster]

Well, if you are of the opinion that Catholicism is a false religion and that those who adhere to it are “without the Almighty” then I guess you are entitled to that view. But you wouldn’t need to search too hard within this very forum to find another Christian who thinks you are “without the Almighty” as well because you hold to a different doctrine than him. Yet both of you would have that same strong conviction that you are “with the Almighty”, that you have the truth on your side and that you are really conforming yourself to his will.




As I said in the OP, I was being asked by a few TOLers about this and some who interacted with me were doing so under the impression that I was still a Catholic. So to avoid confusion and instead of continuously making individual messages for people who asked me, I decided to start a thread to let people know about this change and so that those who want can ask questions about it. I’ve been a member of this site since 2006, I didn’t suddenly decide to register here to make this thread.




Easier said than done I’d think; religion is quite a force in society


Evo

Nothing has changed for you you're still as confused as you have always been. Trying to turn the tables on me is a complete waste of time and energy....bye.

 

[alwight]

As some friends and fellow TOLers have noticed, some of whom have sent me messages asking about it (thanks! ), and for others who have yet to notice but who knew what I previously believed: I no longer consider myself a Catholic nor a theist.

I've never been a theist but at one time I might have responded as "Christian" because Christianity was what I learnt at school, and after all everyone was Christian, weren't they?
Well maybe they were back then perhaps and I just tagged along for a while.
I do recall being glad when I finally decided to say "atheist" instead of "Christian" if asked, which felt rather more honest.lain:

 

[Evoken]

Just curious what would you consider "evidence" of God's existence, Evoken?

Would depend on what you mean by “God”; but for the sake of keeping it with the general notion of the Christian God; ignoring or taking as metaphorical the creation account for the moment; this is a being who is said to be active in the world, who loves, cares for and is involved in human affairs, who is said to be bringing about his divine plan, performing miracles, answering prayers, etc; then evidence would be a body of facts by which a well reasoned and reliable demonstration that such is indeed the case can be made; showing that this God is actually doing something in the world. I mean, say for example that Christian religious experience, prayers and miraculous acts (like faith healing or signs) are unambiguously demonstrated to bring about results that indicate there is a supernatural reality behind them. That these are even demonstrated in a way that is not possible for other religions like Islam or Hinduism (for example). Or even within Christianity itself, say we had this demonstrable evidence for Catholic prayers, sacraments, miracles and religious experience and not for the same in other denominations. That would be something to consider, but I find that no such evidence exits.

But of course the Christian God is not limited to those means so he clearly could employ an untold number of ways by which he could demonstrate his existence and power. Going by the Bible, he did plenty of them. Look, for instance, how Elijah on Mount Carmel settled a dispute among the people with the worshipers of Baal to establish who was the true God (1 Kings 18:18-39). Now that would be something.


Evo

 

[Nang]

Evo,

Do you deny the birth, life, and death of Jesus Christ?

 

[Selaphiel]

Would depend on what you mean by “God”; but for the sake of keeping it with the general notion of the Christian God; ignoring or taking as metaphorical the creation account for the moment; this is a being who is said to be active in the world, who loves, cares for and is involved in human affairs, who is said to be bringing about his divine plan, performing miracles, answering prayers, etc; then evidence would be a body of facts by which a well reasoned and reliable demonstration that such is indeed the case can be made; showing that this God is actually doing something in the world. I mean, say for example that Christian religious experience, prayers and miraculous acts (like faith healing or signs) are unambiguously demonstrated to bring about results that indicate there is a supernatural reality behind them. That these are even demonstrated in a way that is not possible for other religions like Islam or Hinduism (for example). Or even within Christianity itself, say we had this demonstrable evidence for Catholic prayers, sacraments, miracles and religious experience and not for the same in other denominations. That would be something to consider, but I find that no such evidence exits.

But of course the Christian God is not limited to those means so he clearly could employ an untold number of ways by which he could demonstrate his existence and power. Going by the Bible, he did plenty of them. Look, for instance, how Elijah on Mount Carmel settled a dispute among the people with the worshipers of Baal to establish who was the true God (1 Kings 18:18-39). Now that would be something.


Evo

How do you view the various forms of philosophical theism? That is, forms of theism that does not make claims of so specific spectacles as for example the Mount Carmel episode.

I would agree that such episodes are quite hard to provide evidence for. But there is, as you surely know, a far cry between being skeptical of such specific episodes and atheism or even between being skeptical of Christianity and atheism.

:e4e:

 

[Evoken]

Evo,

Do you deny the birth, life, and death of Jesus Christ?

Hi Nang,
While some recent scholars seem to be pushing for the Mythical Jesus theory; I hold to the view that Jesus was a real person.


Evo

 

[Rusha]

Evo, being honest with yourself is the most important thing. I understand first hand how doubt factors into making this type of statement in regards to your actual beliefs.

Thanks for being open and honest enough to share the reasons for this change.

 

[Evoken]

How do you view the various forms of philosophical theism? That is, forms of theism that does not make claims of so specific spectacles as for example the Mount Carmel episode.

I would agree that such episodes are quite hard to provide evidence for. But there is, as you surely know, a far cry between being skeptical of such specific episodes and atheism or even between being skeptical of Christianity and atheism.

:e4e:

Hey Sela,

Yeah, I know that ruling out Christianity or even all other religions due to lack of evidence doesn't necessarily needs to rule out a God itself who could have created the universe. I am aware of such a position but I am not really convinced by it or the arguments usually made for it like, say, Craig's Kalam or Edward Feser's Aristotelean proof. I am also comfortable with saying "I don't know" when it comes to questions such as "why is there something rather than nothing?" (a question which I think makes the implicit assumption that nothingness is the only possible default state of affairs).

Thanks for posting :e4e:


Evo

 

[Evoken]

Evo, being honest with yourself is the most important thing. I understand first hand how doubt factors into making this type of statement in regards to your actual beliefs.

Thanks for being open and honest enough to share the reasons for this change.

Thanks Rusha

 

[Evoken]

I've never been a theist but at one time I might have responded as "Christian" because Christianity was what I learnt at school, and after all everyone was Christian, weren't they?
Well maybe they were back then perhaps and I just tagged along for a while.
I do recall being glad when I finally decided to say "atheist" instead of "Christian" if asked, which felt rather more honest.lain:

Yeah, well, I wasn't always a Christian myself. Growing up, while I was baptised Catholic as an infant, the faith was never forced on me and I was very much left to my own when it came to it. I didn't go to a Catholic school either. I grew up being rather indifferent towards religion in general. It was only around my late teenage years that I began taking things more seriously. Before embracing Christianity and later on the Catholic faith, I had dabbed in Satanism (the LaVeyan type, not the theistic type) and then Gnosticism, the deeper exploration of Gnosticism and it's history was what eventually lead me to Christianity and then Catholicism.


Evo