Theology Club: circumcised vs uncircumcised

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I cant help it if you are blind to the Truth staring you right in the face ! Rom 1:15-16; Acts 17:1-4 !

I already addressed Romans 1:15-16 and at Acts 17:1-4 Paul says nothing about the Lord Jesus dying for our sins.

But you refuse to address what I said here:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you they are the same!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I already addressed Romans 1:15-16 and at Acts 17:1-4 Paul says nothing about the Lord Jesus dying for our sins.

But you refuse to address what I said here:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you they are the same!

Now we know what it means to be blind to the truth, it is plain as the noon day Sun, that Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and the Greek Rom 1:15 - 16 !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

Shasta

Well-known member
You are the liar! As usual you cannot tell the truth from fiction.

Paul preached two different gospels and the one which he preached to the Jews is not the same one which he preached to the Gentiles.

You are a fool and it is ridiculous for you to call amyone on this thread a liar.

Some minor questions to start with

1. Are you saying Jews and Gentiles could not be saved by hearing the "others" gospel?

2. What about people like Timothy who was half Jew and half Greek. Which classes would they go to? Would they have to follow Rabbinal law to determine if a given person was Jewish? Would they sometimes need to consult the genealogies?

3. Why did the Church Fathers fail to say anything about this dual gospel idea though some of whom would have known Paul and some of the Apostles

4. Why do you and others who believe in MAD keep using the term "Gentile dogs?" Are you implying Jesus was a racist?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Now we know what it means to be blind to the truth, it is plain as the noon day Sun, that Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and the Greek Rom 1:15 - 16 !

Why do you continue to run and hide from what I said here?:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you they are the same!
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
The verse which you quote proves absolutely nothing. And so far no one has even attempted to discuss what I said earlier in an intelligent manner. Here it is again:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20:22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
The verse says that a circumcised man is not to become uncircumcised for reason of having come to Christ.

Jesus the Son of God died for our sins, no one else. This is the gospel.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Some minor questions to start with

1. Are you saying Jews and Gentiles could not be saved by hearing the "others" gospel?

I never said that and I believe that a Gentile can be saved by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Jn.20:31). I also believe that a Jew can be saved by the gospel which declares that Christ died for our sins.

2. What about people like Timothy who was half Jew and half Greek. Which classes would they go to? Would they have to follow Rabbinal law to determine if a given person was Jewish? Would they sometimes need to consult the genealogies?

People like Timothy would be saved by the first gospel which they heard and believed.

3. Why did the Church Fathers fail to say anything about this dual gospel idea though some of whom would have known Paul and some of the Apostles

The facts are plain to anyone who would study the Bible with an open mind. To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

4. Why do you and others who believe in MAD keep using the term "Gentile dogs?" Are you implying Jesus was a racist?

Mark 7:24-27.

Now a question for you concerning Paul's words here:

"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2).​

If the gospel Paul preached among the Gentiles was the same gospel which he preached among the Jews then why would he need to go to Jerusalem in order to consider its relationship to the gospel which he had preached earlier in the company of some of the Apostles (Acts 9:27-29)?

If the gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles was the same gospel which he earlier preached with some of the Apostles then what need would he have to communicate that gospel to the Apostles?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jesus the Son of God died for our sins, no one else. This is the gospel.

The Twelve were preaching the kingdom of God (Lk.9:2) at a time when they did not even know that the Lord Jesus was to die and be resurrected (Lk.18:33-34).

How do you explain that? They certainly did not know that Christ was to die for our sins then.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
The Twelve were preaching the kingdom of God (Lk.9:2) at a time when they did not even know that the Lord Jesus was to die and be resurrected (Lk.18:33-34).

How do you explain that? They certainly did not know that Christ was to die for our sins then.
The death, burial, and resurrection are all part of God's gospel of Jesus Christ His Son. This includes His birth, life, and even ascension (etc...) after death and resurrection.

Those before the Messiah looked forward to His coming. Those afterward, such as people like yourself and myself, look backward (that is, what Jesus the Messiah accomplished happened in the past).

The disciples/apostles learned during the course of their lives, just like us. There is location in the scriptures where they learned of the type of death He was to die, I believe. Here are a couple of verses that I found just now in thinking of how to respond to your question.

John 12:33 NASB - But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

John 18:32 NASB - to fulfill the word of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Why do you continue to run and hide from what I said here?:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you they are the same!

All I can do is show you the truth, cannot make you believe it. Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and the Greek, Rom 1:15 -16 ; Acts 17:1-4 !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The death, burial, and resurrection are all part of God's gospel of Jesus Christ His Son. This includes His birth, life, and even ascension (etc...) after death and resurrection.

You leave out the fact that He died for our sins. When was that gospel preached at any time prior to the time when Paul was saved?

Even many of the most influential Acts 2 dispensationalists understand this fact. So the gospel preached to the Jews prior to the conversation of Paul said nothing about the purpose of the Cross--that believers are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
All I can do is show you the truth, cannot make you believe it. Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and the Greek, Rom 1:15 -16 ; Acts 17:1-4 !

You run from the truth and that is why you continue to fail to address the following facts which I presented to you on several occasions:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Run, coward, run!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You run from the truth and that is why you continue to fail to address the following facts which I presented to you on several occasions:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Run, coward, run!

Now people should see the truth on how men have been sent a strong delusion to believe a lie. That Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile is written here Rom 1:15-16 !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

Shasta

Well-known member
To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20:22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

So if a gentile were to listen to the Jewish gospel which proclaims Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God" they would not be saved? Why not? Why should the vital truth about Jesus divine origin and relationship to the Father be withheld from Gentiles? Without this knowledge they might take Jesus to be a morally good man who offered his life as a noble act of self-sacrifice. That was not why He died. He was crucified for blasphemy, for making Himself equal to God. Also, why should Jesus' role as the Messiah be omitted? This is an important doctrine especially with regard to His coming again to reign on the earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

I find it amazing that you think Christ death on the cross for our sins was given to the Gentiles but omitted in any message aimed to reaching the Jews. The blood atonement for sin was in Old Testament prophecy and they would have certainly understood it. Jesus had been declared to be "The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world" by John the Baptist at the very beginning of His ministry. The significance of His death at Passover, John's resemblance to Elijah would have been very rich symbols in the thinking of any Jewish person. It would also have been necessary to know they needed an atoning intermediary so they would not think they could approach God with good works.

Apparently in the MAD paradigm only parts of the truth had an effect on the respective groups. For some reason Jews and Gentiles were incapable of grasping or benefiting from the whole counsel of God. Yet I do not see any reason why a complete message could not be preached. Why not preach that Jesus was the Son of God, that He was the sacrifice for sin, the promised King who would come again and that if they believed in Him they would be saved? This is the way the gospel is preached today and it is efficacious for Jew and Gentile alike. Unlike a dual gospel this one message would have had a unifying effect on a group all too prone to disunity

As more Gentiles were saved it would have been increasingly difficult to deliver these separate messages to different audiences. Dividing populations and messages would have encouraged division in a body where there "was no Jew nor Greek." Paul speaking to the Corinthians, a large group that consisted of both Jews and Greeks where Apollos and Peter had also ministered called what they taught "The Word of the Cross" and, far from being adapted to suit any group it was "foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews (1 Corinthians 1:22-24) So here we have an example of two audiences hearing one message which was unacceptable to the natural mind of both.

Anyone with the slightest degree of discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

The term good news comes from the Septuagint translation of Isaiah

61. 1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news (Greek "evangelion")to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

This is a Messianic prophecy. The Spirit of the Lord would be upon the Messiah (John 1:33). Because He would be a king he would be anointed but his anointing would include supernatual power by which he would do miracles. (Acts 10:38) It is an extensive all-encompassing prophecy which continues until His second coming

Jesus Himself took the word "good news" from this passage to describe His own ministry and message yet MAD claims that Paul had a different "good news" even though the term came from the very same passage. It it not sound hermeneutically to use such an significant word out of context and use it in an entirely different way. That is not the way to rightly divide the scriptures. According to the Bible The Good News is the message Jesus proclaimed. He is the Messiah being spoken about in the Isaiah passage not Paul. You people say that Paul had visions did not merely clarify and deepen our understanding of Jesus gospel but supplanted it and made He (and Isaiah) said obsolete.

Again, Jesus died on the cross precisely because He said He was the Son of God. If he had not been He also could not have been the perfect sacrifice and mediator between God and man. Therefore one idea depends on the other.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So if a gentile were to listen to the Jewish gospel which proclaims Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God" they would not be saved?

Go back and read what I said about that and it is clear that I said that they would be saved.

I find it amazing that you think Christ death on the cross for our sins was given to the Gentiles but omitted in any message aimed to reaching the Jews.

That truth was not revealed to anyone before Paul was converted. And there are many in the Acts 2 camp who recognize that truth.

So the gospel preached on the day of Pentecost was not the same gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles.

The blood atonement for sin was in Old Testament prophecy and they would have certainly understood it.

Then why did those closest to the Lord Jesus not even know that He was to die? (Lk.18:33-34).

Your knowledge is so limited I wonder if you have actually read the Bible.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Now people should see the truth on how men have been sent a strong delusion to believe a lie. That Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile is written here Rom 1:15-16 !

Run, coward run! Run away from what I said here:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Of course you have no answers to those things so you just close your eyes to those truths!
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
You leave out the fact that He died for our sins. When was that gospel preached at any time prior to the time when Paul was saved?

Even many of the most influential Acts 2 dispensationalists understand this fact. So the gospel preached to the Jews prior to the conversation of Paul said nothing about the purpose of the Cross--that believers are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus!
Jesus died for our sins. He also rose from the dead. None of the apostle's preached against this. And people were saved before Paul preached to either Jews or Gentiles. It was the Jews who were saved first, upon believing and they received the Holy Spirit. That Jesus died for us does not leave out that Jesus died for our sins.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jesus died for our sins. He also rose from the dead. None of the apostle's preached against this.

The Scriptures will be searched in vain for any of the Apostles preaching a gospel that speaks of the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross--that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Even many of the most influential Acts 2 dispensationalists understand this fact. So the gospel preached to the Jews prior to the conversation of Paul said nothing about the purpose of the Cross so therefore that was not the same gospel as the gospel of grace.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Run, coward run! Run away from what I said here:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Of course you have no answers to those things so you just close your eyes to those truths!

We see how strong a delusion can be !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
We see how strong a delusion can be !

All I see is you running away as fast as you can from these facts:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Run, coward, run!
 
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