Theology Club: circumcised vs uncircumcised

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul preached the same Gospel of Christ to the jew as to the Greek, its right here Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You continue to insist that the "good news" preached to the Jews is the same "good news" which was preached to the Gentiles.

But where did anyone preach the gospel that believers are are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus before Paul?

The gospel which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period concerned the "identity" of the Lord Jesus--that He is the Christ, the Son of God. The first message which Paul preached after being converted was this gospel which he spoke to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).​

That is the same message that Apollos preached to the Jews:

"For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus is Christ" (Acts18:28).​

We also have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. in that sermon there is not a word about God's "grace" and there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross. Instead, Peter speaks of the Lord Jesus being God and the fact that He is the promised Messiah.

So we can clearly see that the central message that was preached to the Jews is the fact that it is Jesus Who is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you that is the same "good news" as the one which declares that believers are are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[beloved57]

You continue to insist that the "good news" preached to the Jews is the same "good news" which was preached to the Gentiles.

But where did anyone preach the gospel that believers are are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus before Paul?

The gospel which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period concerned the "identity" of the Lord Jesus--that He is the Christ, the Son of God. The first message which Paul preached after being converted was this gospel which he spoke to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).​

That is the same message that Apollos preached to the Jews:

"For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus is Christ" (Acts18:28).​

We also have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. in that sermon there is not a word about God's "grace" and there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross. Instead, Peter speaks of the Lord Jesus being God and the fact that He is the promised Messiah.

So we can clearly see that the central message that was preached to the Jews is the fact that it is Jesus Who is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you that is the same "good news" as the one which declares that believers are are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Paul preached the same Gospel of Christ to the jew as to the Greek, its right here Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

He Preached to jew and gentile in His Gospel that Jesus is the Son of God Rom 1:4

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This shows your blindness !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul preached the same Gospel of Christ to the jew as to the Greek, its right here Rom 1:15-16

I have already addressed that passage.

And you were unable to prove that anything I said is in error. You are unable to understand the most simple things revealed in the Bible.

 

[beloved57]

I have already addressed that passage.

And you were unable to prove that anything I said is in error. You are unable to understand the most simple things revealed in the Bible.

It doesn't matter how many times you addressed it, you can not change what it clearly teaches ! PAUL preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile Rom 1:15-16,4 !

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Jacob]

Give me one instance where any Apostle preached that Christ died for our sins before Paul did.

Just one!

The death and resurrection of Jesus are proclaimed by Peter in Acts 2, to start.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The death and resurrection of Jesus are proclaimed by Peter in Acts 2, to start.

Are you under the impression that those things are the same as the gospel that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Acts 2 dispensationalist William Newell wrote:

"The twelve Apostles (Matthias by Divine appointment taking the place of Judas) were to be the 'witnesses' (Acts 1:22) of Christ's resurrection--that is, of the fact of it. They were not to unfold fully the doctrine of it, as Paul was...But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal 'the great body of doctrine for this age'...The great doctrines that Paul reveals may be outlined as follows...The fact and the Scripturalness of righteousness on the free gift principle--that is, of Divine righteousness, separate from all man's doings, conferred upon man as a free gift from God" (Newell, Paul's Gospel).​

After reading this Bible tract Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founding President of Dallas Theological Seminary, said:

"This is a great tract, a clear treatise on the truth of God for this age. The author was one of America's greatest Bible expositors. It glorifies the Savior as the author desired it to do. It should be distributed by hundreds of thousands" (Editor, Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1994, Volume 7:12).​

Today Dallas Theological Seminary is considered the leading Acts 2 dispensational seminary in the world, and the founding President of that seminary recognized the fact that the "gospel of grace" was not preached by anyone before Paul. Therefore that gospel was not preached on the Day of Pentecost was not the gospel of grace.

The second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, John F. Walvoord, wrote that "The gospel of Grace was given to Paul as a 'new' revelation" (Walvoord, "The Preincarnate Son of God", Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct.-Dec. 1947, Vol. 104, # 416, p.422).

Charles Ryrie, Professor Emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary for many years, wrote the following:

"The apostle Paul was principally, though not exclusively, the agent of the revelation of the grace of God for this dispensation. Christ Himself brought the grace of God to mankind in His incarnation (Titus 2:11), but Paul was the one who expounded it" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.56).​

All you have proved so far is the fact that you are unable to distinguish between the gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and the gospel which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

To you they are one in the same!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It doesn't matter how many times you addressed it, you can not change what it clearly teaches ! PAUL preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile Rom 1:15-16,4 !

You talk big but so far you have failed to give even one example where Paul presented a gospel to the Jews that declared that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I have already shown you from the Bible what was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and instead of believing it you just make things up out of thin air.

You are a sad case but no one can help you because you refuse to believe what the Scriptures say.

 

[Jacob]

Are you under the impression that those things are the same as the gospel that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Acts 2 dispensationalist William Newell wrote:

"The twelve Apostles (Matthias by Divine appointment taking the place of Judas) were to be the 'witnesses' (Acts 1:22) of Christ's resurrection--that is, of the fact of it. They were not to unfold fully the doctrine of it, as Paul was...But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal 'the great body of doctrine for this age'...The great doctrines that Paul reveals may be outlined as follows...The fact and the Scripturalness of righteousness on the free gift principle--that is, of Divine righteousness, separate from all man's doings, conferred upon man as a free gift from God" (Newell, Paul's Gospel).​

After reading this Bible tract Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founding President of Dallas Theological Seminary, said:

"This is a great tract, a clear treatise on the truth of God for this age. The author was one of America's greatest Bible expositors. It glorifies the Savior as the author desired it to do. It should be distributed by hundreds of thousands" (Editor, Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1994, Volume 7:12).​

Today Dallas Theological Seminary is considered the leading Acts 2 dispensational seminary in the world, and the founding President of that seminary recognized the fact that the "gospel of grace" was not preached by anyone before Paul. Therefore that gospel was not preached on the Day of Pentecost was not the gospel of grace.

The second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, John F. Walvoord, wrote that "The gospel of Grace was given to Paul as a 'new' revelation" (Walvoord, "The Preincarnate Son of God", Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct.-Dec. 1947, Vol. 104, # 416, p.422).

Charles Ryrie, Professor Emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary for many years, wrote the following:

"The apostle Paul was principally, though not exclusively, the agent of the revelation of the grace of God for this dispensation. Christ Himself brought the grace of God to mankind in His incarnation (Titus 2:11), but Paul was the one who expounded it" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.56).​

All you have proved so far is the fact that you are unable to distinguish between the gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and the gospel which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

To you they are one in the same!

The truth of God, His word, includes the death and resurrection of Jesus as well as the person of Jesus (that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God). He is Lord and Savior. Etc.... There are many things that can be said about who He is and what He has done.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The truth of God, His word, includes the death and resurrection of Jesus as well as the person of Jesus (that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God). He is Lord and Savior. Etc.... There are many things that can be said about who He is and what He has done.

All you have proved so far is the fact that you are unable to distinguish between the gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and the gospel which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

To you they are one and the same!

 

[Jacob]

All you have proved so far is the fact that you are unable to distinguish between the gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and the gospel which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

To you they are one and the same!

The truth is the truth Jerry. You can't accept one truth and deny another and still have truth. Pertaining to your salvation we have discussed two statements of truth, none of which the apostles would have disagreed with.

 

[beloved57]

You talk big but so far you have failed to give even one example where Paul presented a gospel to the Jews that declared that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I have already shown you from the Bible what was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and instead of believing it you just make things up out of thin air.

You are a sad case but no one can help you because you refuse to believe what the Scriptures say.

You are a prime example of being the recipient of a strong delusion ! It's right before your eyes that Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile Rom 1:15-16 !

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are a prime example of being the recipient of a strong delusion ! It's right before your eyes that Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile Rom 1:15-16 !

You talk big but so far you have failed to give even one example where Paul presented a gospel to the Jews that declared that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I have already shown you from the Bible what was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and instead of believing it you just make things up out of thin air.

You are a sad case but no one can help you because you refuse to believe what the Scriptures say.

 

[beloved57]

You talk big but so far you have failed to give even one example where Paul presented a gospel to the Jews that declared that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I have already shown you from the Bible what was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and instead of believing it you just make things up out of thin air.

You are a sad case but no one can help you because you refuse to believe what the Scriptures say.

You are a example of what Paul says here 2 Cor 4:3-4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You are a prime example of being blinded by satan ! It's right before your eyes that Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile Rom 1:15-16 !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are a example of what Paul says here 2 Cor 4:3-4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You are a prime example of being blinded by satan ! It's right before your eyes that Paul preached the same Gospel to the jew and Gentile Rom 1:15-16 !

If I am blinded by Satan then the following Acts 2 dispensationalists were also blinded:

Acts 2 dispensationalist William Newell wrote:

"The twelve Apostles (Matthias by Divine appointment taking the place of Judas) were to be the 'witnesses' (Acts 1:22) of Christ's resurrection--that is, of the fact of it. They were not to unfold fully the doctrine of it, as Paul was...But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal 'the great body of doctrine for this age'...The great doctrines that Paul reveals may be outlined as follows...The fact and the Scripturalness of righteousness on the free gift principle--that is, of Divine righteousness, separate from all man's doings, conferred upon man as a free gift from God" (Newell, Paul's Gospel).​

After reading this Bible tract Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founding President of Dallas Theological Seminary, said:

"This is a great tract, a clear treatise on the truth of God for this age. The author was one of America's greatest Bible expositors. It glorifies the Savior as the author desired it to do. It should be distributed by hundreds of thousands" (Editor, Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1994, Volume 7:12).​

Today Dallas Theological Seminary is considered the leading Acts 2 dispensational seminary in the world, and the founding President of that seminary recognized the fact that the "gospel of grace" was not preached by anyone before Paul. Therefore that gospel was not preached on the Day of Pentecost was not the gospel of grace.

The second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, John F. Walvoord, wrote that "The gospel of Grace was given to Paul as a 'new' revelation" (Walvoord, "The Preincarnate Son of God", Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct.-Dec. 1947, Vol. 104, # 416, p.422).

Charles Ryrie, Professor Emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary for many years, wrote the following:

"The apostle Paul was principally, though not exclusively, the agent of the revelation of the grace of God for this dispensation. Christ Himself brought the grace of God to mankind in His incarnation (Titus 2:11), but Paul was the one who expounded it" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.56).​

All you have proved so far is the fact that you are unable to distinguish between the gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and the gospel which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

To you they are one in the same! It is you who has been blinded by Satan and not me.

 

[beloved57]

If I am blinded by Satan then the following Acts 2 dispensationalists were also blinded:

Acts 2 dispensationalist William Newell wrote:

"The twelve Apostles (Matthias by Divine appointment taking the place of Judas) were to be the 'witnesses' (Acts 1:22) of Christ's resurrection--that is, of the fact of it. They were not to unfold fully the doctrine of it, as Paul was...But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal 'the great body of doctrine for this age'...The great doctrines that Paul reveals may be outlined as follows...The fact and the Scripturalness of righteousness on the free gift principle--that is, of Divine righteousness, separate from all man's doings, conferred upon man as a free gift from God" (Newell, Paul's Gospel).​

After reading this Bible tract Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founding President of Dallas Theological Seminary, said:

"This is a great tract, a clear treatise on the truth of God for this age. The author was one of America's greatest Bible expositors. It glorifies the Savior as the author desired it to do. It should be distributed by hundreds of thousands" (Editor, Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1994, Volume 7:12).​

Today Dallas Theological Seminary is considered the leading Acts 2 dispensational seminary in the world, and the founding President of that seminary recognized the fact that the "gospel of grace" was not preached by anyone before Paul. Therefore that gospel was not preached on the Day of Pentecost was not the gospel of grace.

The second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, John F. Walvoord, wrote that "The gospel of Grace was given to Paul as a 'new' revelation" (Walvoord, "The Preincarnate Son of God", Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct.-Dec. 1947, Vol. 104, # 416, p.422).

Charles Ryrie, Professor Emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary for many years, wrote the following:

"The apostle Paul was principally, though not exclusively, the agent of the revelation of the grace of God for this dispensation. Christ Himself brought the grace of God to mankind in His incarnation (Titus 2:11), but Paul was the one who expounded it" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.56).​

All you have proved so far is the fact that you are unable to distinguish between the gospel which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and the gospel which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

To you they are one in the same! It is you who has been blinded by Satan and not me.

Yes you are blinded ! Another proof that Paul preached the same Gospel to both jew and Gentile is here 1 Cor 1:23 -24 !

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Shasta]

I already addressed Romans 1:15-16 and at Acts 17:1-4 Paul says nothing about the Lord Jesus dying for our sins.

But you refuse to address what I said here:

To the Jews Paul preached the good news or gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 9:20-22). And the Jews who believed that truth were born of God and received life the moment when they believed (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:31).

To the Gentiles Paul preached a gospel or the good news that Jesus died for our sins (1 Cor.15:3) and those who believed that truth were saved the moment when they believed.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that the "good news" that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

But to you they are the same!

The message of the cross was preached to Jew as well as Gentile (1 Corinthians 1:23-24) and was equally offensive to both. Paul did not change this message to accommodate for the audience he spoke to because it was the power of God to all those being saved. This Jewish gospel you are proposing is bloodless and therefore possesses no power to save. Do you think the Jews would have no basis to understand blood sacrifice? Their whole sacrificial and sacerdotal system was based on it, their nation was founded on a blood covenant and, think about it, wouldn't this have to be taught in Jerusalem to show them the reason for Jesus death? The Jews knew better than the Gentiles about the "Sufferin Messiah" prophecies. Many would have heard of John the Baptist pronouncement "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." The disciples certainly heard that. It was why Andrew and Peter took notice of him. If they did not address Jesus and explain it as an atonement people would think Jesus was a blasphemer who was under a curse for "hanging on a tree" or maybe the heroic act of a good man. They could not have had their sins forgiven. Note that Corinth was a Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles. Peter and Apollos ministered there as well but Paul saw them all as working different parts of the same field.

 

[Dialogos]

That gospel is not the same as the "gospel of grace," which declares that believers are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So, are believers of the "circumcision gospel" justified freely by His grace or no?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The message of the cross was preached to Jew as well as Gentile (1 Corinthians 1:23-24) and was equally offensive to both.

Yes, on the day of Pentecost Peter spoke the following message concerning the Cross:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).​

However, in that uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36 there is not a word about God's "grace" and there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross. Despite this men were being saved by believing what Peter preached, a so-called bloodless gospel.

This Jewish gospel you are proposing is bloodless and therefore possesses no power to save.

The so-called bloodless gospel declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and those who believe that gospel receive life and are saved the second they believe it:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Are you willing to deny that believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, brings salvation?

Are you willing to argue that believing those truths do not result in a person being born of God?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-4).​

Are you willing to argue that someone can believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and remain unsaved?

Are you willing to argue that the declaration that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is not a gospel? Even though it brings life to those who believe it?

If your answer is "no" then are you willing to argue that that gospel is the same one which declares that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, are believers of the "circumcision gospel" justified freely by His grace or no?

Yes, they are justified by grace. However, it is only the "gospel of grace" which declares that men are saved freely by His grace.

 

[beloved57]

Yes, they are justified by grace. However, it is only the "gospel of grace" which declares that men are saved freely by His grace.

What other Gospel is it ? That Gospel is founded upon the Grace given in Christ before the foundation of the world ! 2 Tim 1:9