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Which, in this case, HE can't be/or remain in focus because you have NOTHING going for you to make that happen.
OMT: Jesus is coming again for SOMETHING.
ECT Pentecostal Testimony
- Thread starter andyc
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Which, in this case, HE can't be/or remain in focus because you have NOTHING going for you to make that happen.
OMT: Jesus is coming again for SOMETHING.
HA HA
I did become OSAS for a few month after listening to a Charles Stanley sermon one morning. I knew I was saved while in rebellion and so if that debunked the alternative, then so be it.
The problem was when I came up against the awkward verses. Something was missing, and it bothered me for weeks. At the time I only understood OSAS, and the save-lost-saved-lost alternative. It was either A or B, but could thee be a C?
One of the reasons why I think there is so much volatility between the OSAS crowd and save-lost crowd is because there are convincing arguments for both sides, and this means that there is a more balanced view between the two. After reading Hebrews 6:5-6 one day, I knew OSAS had to be false, but at the same time knew I was saved while in sin. So what was the answer?
Again I went for a walk and asked God. The response was simple. Faith. I went home and had a look at every problem verse for OSAS, and found that faith was the common denominator every time. As long as a person believes they are OSAS, they are
I would say faith too...but not our faith, rather the faith of One whose faith never fails.
musterion
Well-known member
1. I am saved by God's faithfulness to His own Word that He will not lose any whom He has declared dead, forgiven, justified and forever sealed and fused into His Son. UESIC is really that simple, Andy. You'll either believe those truths for yourself, or you won't.
2. UESIC is absolutely not unconditional election, and that is one of the misrepresentations if not the biggest.
U.E. (Calvinism) says the believer is secure ONLY because God elected him/her to be regenerated, to believe and be saved -- and in that precise order.
UESIC, on the other hand, says the believer is secure because God has forever identified him/her with Christ.
"So what's the difference?" you ask. Speaking as one who has been fully on both sides of this fence, the difference is this:
The Calvinist, for this to work, FIRST has to convince himself he is one of the secret Elect in order to truly, fully believe he's saved. Problem is, it's impossible to do with 100% certainty. God didn't give us a directory of the Elect. Plus, they acknowledge that there are such things as false professors/tares/goats/sidewalk sprouts, etc, who APPEAR to be saved for a time but will eventually fall away and be burned. And if they're honest (very, very few are), every one of them will admit that he or she may burn in the end because they just don't know...CAN'T know...if they're Elect.
That's why Lordship Salvation was invented: to help people influenced by Calvinism (and similar flesh systems) "prove" to themselves and to others that they really do belong to God. How? By navel-gazing over your own works (thoughts, words and deeds) and measuring yourself against some standard. Usually, that standard is Israel's law.
Welcome to Galatia. Population: you.
UESIC, on the other hand, depends 100% on what GOD has said He'll do for any who believe the Gospel of the grace of God. He promised, I believed, it's done. If it isn't, then He lied.
The burden, then, is shifted from the shoulders of the believer (where it is with Lordship Salvation...and with your own beliefs) to the shoulders of Christ, Who has already borne it and laid it down!
So now, instead of constantly examining myself and spiraling into depression and despair and blackest doubt because the old flesh always kept me from "measuring up," NOW I realize the truth: I died in Christ, yet now I live...yet not I, but Christ Who lives in me. So the life I now live, I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God.
NOW, it's not about me, who can't hope to measure up to ANY standard. It's all about Him. As it should be. Because I am nothing.
That's UESIC. See the difference?
Nope. That's salvation in it's fullest sense: safety, now and evermore. A safety that you deny even exists.
But believe what you want. You don't answer to me. We'll all stand before Him eventually, at one judgment or the other.
Cruciform
New member
>SIGH<
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
musterion
Well-known member
>SIGH<
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Do you condescendingly sigh over the Catholics who were charismatic as far back as the '60s and '70s too? Or is it somehow different when a papist babbles in "tongues"?
andyc
New member
Look at what Paul says here....
"As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him"
Now this means that in the same way we received Christ, this is how we are to continue. So if we were saved by Christ's faith, then we would continue in Christ's faith, and would not ever doubt anything. And Paul would not be exhorting people to do what is automatically going to be done anyway. But if we received Christ with our faith, then we would also continue with our faith, in which sense we would have to be aware of the devil, false doctrine etc as Paul is explaining.
This fits perfectly with the Hebrews writer who talks about the effort of entering into God's rest. Boy I love that passage.
Just as with Adam and Eve at the beginning, God completed the physical works and rested, so Christ has completed the spiritual works and has rested. Everything is complete in Christ, and now we are to simply rest in it. Awesome. But the Hebrews writer says, be diligent to enter that rest. It almost seems like a contradiction, but it's not. The natural mind is going to question everything, doubt everything, worry about everything etc, and it takes effort to silence the natural mind. It takes faith. Man's faith
I believe Cruce was converted to the RCC through one.....
andyc
New member
You are not making any sense with this at all.
On the one hand you're implying that it was your choice to be saved, because you appear to be advocating free will. But on the other hand you seem to be saying that you were saved by Christ's faith, which means you had no part in it. If you have no part in it, you had to have been singled out for salvation.
As I said previously, it's hardly much different for you. If you came back in a year as an atheist, no one here who thinks like you do would put any value on your claim to have once believed. And if you were no longer believing, the whole thing would be meaningless. Therefore, without a doubt, your determination to adopt OSAS is nothing more than a personal assurance that God would never leave you, which would be meaningless anyway if you departed from faith.
Nope. I'm not a Clavinist, but i know they don't think like this. Once a Calvinist believes and is born again, they know they are part of the elect.
I'm not against this. As I said, as long as you believe you are OSAS, you will be. I believe I am eternally secure. There is nothing I can do to lose salvation, except depart from God, which I do not believe will happen. The believer is eternally secure.
Excellent explanation of truth at its finest!!
andyc
New member
So did you choose to accept Christ, or did Christ choose you?
The "Grace Message" was given to Paul on the road to Damascus.
We were all created with free-will to choose what we want to place
our faith in. Once someone has heard "Paul's Gospel" (given to Paul
by the risen Christ.) they have the choice of accepting or rejecting
the mercy, forgiveness, and eternal life that God's Grace offers;
through Christ's death and resurrection.
If they should place their faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior,
They are, sealed, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and baptized (not
by water) into the Body of Christ. As part of their 'conversion'
they receive the "Righteousness" of Christ and cannot lose that
position. (OSAS) Someday they will stand before, God the Son
(Christ) and be given rewards or suffer the loss of rewards.
However, there is no condemnation or judgment for the "Child
of God." On the other hand; the "Unsaved" will stand before God
the Father, and be judged according to their works. They will be
subsequently, cast into the 'Lake of Fire.'
Romans 10:17--"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing
by the word of God."
Ephesians 1:13--"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard
the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also
after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of
promise,"
1 Corinthians 12:13--"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into
one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond
or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
Ephesians 2:8-9--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest
any man should boast."
Romans 3:22--"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith
of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there
is no difference:"
Galatians 2:7--"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel
of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of
the circumcision was unto Peter;"
Romans 2:16--"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of
men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Cruciform
New member
The sigh was specifically over the "word of faith" aspect of andy's testimony.
Cruciform
New member
Incorrect.
musterion
Well-known member
You haven't thought this through.
If you're right, the only reason anyone believes the Gospel is because God wanted them to believe it. Well if you accept that premise, you automatically accept this one too: the only reason unbelievers do not believe is because God did not want them to -- else they would. No two ways about it: if free will does not exist, then God is a liar and a fraud for condemning all who refuse to believe on Christ, for it's His choice that they don't. But since He is not a liar nor a fraud, free will exists.
I was saved through my faith in Christ, not by it. For without faith it is impossible to please God. There is no merit whatsoever in that; I simply did what God pleads with all to do (2 Cor 5:20). I am being saved, and will be saved, by Christ's faithfulness. It doesn't depend on me any more than it depended on Noah once he was inside the ark.
The problem is that you keep subtly equating faith with work. It isn't. Never was, never will be. Until you stop miscomputing it as such, this discussion goes nowhere.
By the way. Why would God plead with those who have no free will to do as He pleads, or with those whom He will cause to believe when He gets around to it? Without free will, His pleading is not only meaningless, it's a lie. Is that really the God you worship?
You do not know what you're talking about. They do not know that. They can't. That's why Lordship Salvation exists. They hope they are, and seek to convince themselves they are, and may succeed in doing so. But it's always against the facts that (1) none can know 100% for sure until after death whether he was elect or not, and (2) they could still be revealed to be an destined-for-burning reprobate before it's over with.
You are boasting.
What you're really saying is that your salvation ultimately depends -- not on Christ's finished work before the Father on your behalf -- but on what YOU do or don't do. You won't dare admit it but you're saving yourself. That's cause for boasting, which is exactly what you just did. You've believed a false gospel and you sound quite proud of it.
musterion
Well-known member
Question is legit and still stands.
Cruciform
New member
If they were involved in the "word of faith" aspect, then my answer is "yes."
musterion
Well-known member
What about the ones who claim the same gift of tongues (and whatever else) as seen in Acts?
Cruciform
New member
The Church has allowed for the possibility of the gift of tongues in certain situations. I myself have never experienced that gift, and don't really expect to.
musterion
Well-known member
Good, cuz there's at least three reasons you won't.
Cruciform
New member
The "reasons" that you've derived from your chosen man-made non-Catholic sect, however, aren't why I myself don't expect to experience the gift of tongues.