Calvinists believe it is God's fault men refuse to get saved. They slander God because they have been taught error.
You must be saved to believe the Gospel !
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Nanja
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Matt. 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Believing God hates sinners from birth who had no choice in their birth and who supposedly have not the slightest chance of change because God will not allow it is wrong. The Creator God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christians is not like that, although false gods can certainly be like that.
Nanja
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God does whatever He pleases with His Creation.
Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Of course. But it doesn't please Him to see the death of the wicked.
Say to them: ‘ As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ - Ezekiel 33:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel33:11&version=NKJV
Bad interpreters of Scripture think that because God does as He pleases, He thinks and does evil and calls it good and men have no right to challenge Him on that. God does not think and do evil, bad interpreters of Scripture do and think evil.
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Nanja
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The Truth is hid from you.
2 Cor. 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Yet another instance of ripping a verse out of context.
Don't be a troll, Nanja.
Lon
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Almost every reference has it the other way around:
We have to be careful that our constructs do not rewrite scriptures. We can and should never do that and most of the time I try to post God's Word instead of my own. His will never return void. I don't have that luxury.
Then, not to be confused with:
Faith is not my own doing, but it doesn't mean 'saved' before being saved.
My answer then: God must act on your behalf (and He did) before you are brought to salvation. It is more precise and clearer than 'Saved before saved.'
Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, [then] you will be saved.We have to be careful that our constructs do not rewrite scriptures. We can and should never do that and most of the time I try to post God's Word instead of my own. His will never return void. I don't have that luxury.
Then, not to be confused with:
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.Faith is not my own doing, but it doesn't mean 'saved' before being saved.
My answer then: God must act on your behalf (and He did) before you are brought to salvation. It is more precise and clearer than 'Saved before saved.'
Unfalsifiable : adjective
un·fal·si·fi·able | ˌən-ˌfȯl-sə-ˈfī-ə-bəl
: not capable of being proved false
The reason that its a problem when a doctrine is unfalsifiable is that it opens a door that cannot be shut. There isn't ANY doctrine at all that is out of bounds for you. Any doctrine at all can now fit inside your theological worldview. Want to believe that God is a one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater? Go ahead! You can even adopt that 1958 classic as your theological theme song and worship Sheb Whooly as your prophet and there isn't a single syllable of defiance against that doctrine that you couldn't defeat by simply pulling out the old "The truth is hid from you." theological trump card.
Here's a question for you, how do you know that you aren't the one the truth is hidden from? How would you have responded if I had beaten you to this particular intellectually dishonest punch and told you that the reason you aren't an open theist is because the truth is hid from you and quoted the same two verses you quoted?
That's a serious question, Nanja. How do you know that you aren't the blind one?
The answer is, you don't know. You can't possibly know! You can't know because you intentionally use an unfalsifiable argument and remain unfalsifiable regardless of who uses it against whom. Your entire theological worldview is gigantic house built on a foundation of unfalsifiablity. Every theological term you use has been redefined so as to conform to your doctrine. So if someone says that your god is unjust, it doesn't phase you because your solution isn't to reject the unjust doctrine but to redefine the term "justice". When faced with the contradiction of a loving god that is impassible, your solution isn't to reject the pagan concepts of immutability and impassibility or to even alter their meanings, but instead you choose to redefine what it means for your god to love to such an extent that is possible for prominent and extremely famous Calvinists to utter the words "We correctly deny that God has passions …He cannot be affected by love..." - (C.S. Lewis, Miracles, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1960-1974), pp. 92- 93). For the Calvinist, anger doesn't mean anger, vengeance doesn't mean vengeance, reward doesn't mean reward, hate doesn't mean hate, righteous doesn't mean righteous, justice doesn't mean justice, kindness doesn't mean kindness and love doesn't mean love. It's all twisted and contorted in order to preserve intact the concept of Classical immutability and absolute sovereignty, neither of which are anywhere to be found in scripture.
You literally believe in a doctrine that teaches you to believe that you cannot get your doctrine from a plain reading of scripture but instead must be privy to the secret code that is the Calvinist theological lexicon. You then accept that you are forced to start with your doctrine (a priori) in order to arrive at and/or support your doctrine. It's the most circular stupidity that I have had the misfortune to encounter.
Clete
Nanja
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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,
he cannot see [understand] the kingdom of God.
Being Born of God by the Sanctifying Work of the Spirit is a prerequisite to understanding the Kingdom of God.
Calvinists are wrong to think God designed most people to displease Him with their lives so He could burn them in hell forever as if that made the elect glad they were not chosen to burn like that.
Lon
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Which is NOT "Salvation before salvation." That is just sloppy.
Lon
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It isn't what even most Calvinists believe. The ones in this thread, of course do.
Lon
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Agree, but that is different from what you previously said.
I absolutely agree that God quickens us toward salvation 1 Corinthians 4:7 & 1 John 4:19
but you can't say something like 'a rock was a rock before it was a rock.' All things are created, including us. There is no 'saved' before I was saved. Saved means in Christ. I'd argue perhaps in your favor that 'you were seen by God as saved before you knew you were' or something to that affect, but 'saved before saved' is awkward in conveyance and meaning.
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